Private Thomas Griffin 10999 - 23rd Bttn

[Tim Bell]

Hi All,
Thomas is listed for a future Addenda on the Brookwood (1914-18) Memorial to men who died at home with no known grave.  I can't quite grasp why someone who died in 1915 would not have had a known resting place and then not be recogised as such until after the Memorial had been finalised.  There are two other men from the Regiment who are waiting for the Addenda. Both died after the Armistice.  Does anyone have a further explanation?

SDGW
Birth Place:    Hulme, Lancs
Death Date:    22 Nov 1915
Death Location:    Home
Enlistment Location:    Manchester
Rank:    Private
Regiment:    Manchester Regiment
Battalion:    25th Res. Battalion
Number:    10999
Type of Casualty:    Died
Theatre of War:    Home

CWGC
    28
Regiment/Service:
    Manchester Regiment 23rd Bn.
Panel Reference
    Addenda Panel
Memorial
    BROOKWOOD (UNITED KINGDOM 1914-1918) MEMORIAL
Additional Information:Husband of Elize Griffin, of 43, Stott Street, Hulme.

Tim
Edit
[This was a new commemoration 12/11/2008. Submitted by John Hartley & IFCP]

[mack]

hiya tim.
Thomas is a recent commemoration to the CWGC,but because theres no known place of burial,his name goes into the brookwood register until his burial place is found,his entry in SDGW is enough to get him commemorated.
the puzzling thing about Thomas is when you submit a man for commemoration and hes accepted,the CWGC will not and cannot accept any personal details except his age,so why has he got personal details added to his entry

some of the reasons for having no known grave,usually rest with the family,cremations account for some of these men[scattering of ashes]buried at sea is another reason also families refusing to tell the CWGC,i,ve seen a next of kin form that was sent to the CWGC which had scrawled across it,DO NOT BOTHER ME ANY MORE WITH THIS MATTER,signed his father.

mack

[mack]

the two other manchesters that you mention have already been found five years ago,by me,195 Thomas lawless and 32265 Charles dunkerley.

mack
ps we also found 3787 Stanley barke Canadian dragoons

[PhilipG]

Morning Tim,

Re your interesting comment and Mack's illuminating observations.

I wonder if growing media coverage regarding the Great War has prompted more present-day families to look for relatives lost in that conflict?  Easier access to the records now enables the submission of the required certificates (Birth, Marriage, Death etc.) to be identified, obtained and submitted to the CWGC for commemoration to be considered and, one hopes, effected.  Just a thought!

Incidentally, my eyes were drawn to the uncommon first name of the casualty's wife.  PhilipG.

[Tim Bell]

Mack,
Thanks for the background to the men's names.  I'd suspected members of the forum would have been involved.  It's possibly worth reviewing this memorial every now and again to see it the Manchester men will finally have their commemoration.

Philip,
There's a few aspects of my visit that have caused intrigue.  I hadn't noticed Elize's name.  I wonder if it should be Elsie though?

T

[PhilipG]

Tim

Or Eliza?

Philip.

[Tim Bell]

Quite right Philip,

Nee Eliza Jane Sweeney

Name:   Eliza Jane Griffin
Birth Date:   24 May 1886
Date of Registration:   Mar 1978
Age at Death:   91
Registration district:   Manchester
Inferred County:   Greater Manchester
Volume:   38
Page:   1470

T

I just wonder if she is buried with Thomas???

[mack]

tim your missing the point about what brookwood is all about.the CWGC have always known about these men,but never knew where they were buried
cemetery registers were created for each of the shires of Britain and Ireland,i have originals of all of them,in order to put the man in a specific cemetery listed within these registers,they would need to know where hes buried,but the fortunes of war and peace have not revealed this,so they created a register and memorial for these men+women,but just like other memorials,if hes found,his or her name is struck off the register and added to the relevant register wheres hes buried

example.charles dunkerley that I mentioned above,i found him 5yrs ago

he was sat at home with his sister Martha while on demob leave when he suddenly took ill,he was taken to nell lane hospital but died of acute meningitis a few days later,martha collected his body and took him away for burial,there was no service at the funeral,martha doesn't appear to have told the imperial war graves people where he was buried.
now that hes found,the IWG[nowCWGC]can add him to the records at droylsden cemetery in the No1 lancahire register[there are 8 registers for lancs]

mack

[PhilipG]

Mack-Morning Greetings,

Re No.195 Pte. Thomas Lawless:

I found the CWGC entry "N.B." most interesting, although it failed to give recognition to your goodself.  I wonder if the proposed memorial will be on the lines of that of Captain S. Watts - my thread of 7th Sept. 2013 refers?   Great work, Mack.  Philip.

[mack]

hello Philip.
Thomas lawless is buried in a common grave,no records were kept for common graves,i expect the CWGC will either erect a headstone close to the spot,or just add his name to the screen wall in the cemetery hes buried in,which is weaste in Salford.
it was gary from the SWARM forum who found his burial place,all I discovered was his hometown asked gary and gary did the rest

mack

[PhilipG]

Mack,

A job well done by both of you. Philip.

[Tim Bell]

Returning to Thomas Griffin, I'm advising IFCP he should be recorded as 25th Bttn as shown on SDGW, Pension Card and Effects.  Formerly 18th Bttn XIV Pln.
No burial still...

[Tim Bell]

Chris Harley at IFCP has found Thomas Griffin's burial at Weaste.  His Battalion has already been updated. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/75227965/griffin,-thomas/ I'lll ask his to check the Widow's name spelling.

Tim

[mack]

well done tim and well done to chris,hes done it again with a grave location

mack

[Tim Bell]

Thomas Griffin's burial at Weaste has now been accepted as a War Grave. The particular plot has not been identified, so CWGC intend to erect a Special Memorial. IFCP found this case in 2008 and credit to the late Chris Harley for finding the burial.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75227965/thomas-griffin/
CWGC says "Recent research has shown that this casualty is buried here, however it has not proved possible to identify the exact location of his grave. As a result, the Commission is now in the process of producing a special memorial to commemorate him in this cemetery. Please contact the Commission before planning a visit, for more information."
I don't understand why they're not adding his name to the screen wall and will ask them. We have another group of unmarked (common grave) plots coming through and these will receive similar treatment.