Hello & regarding Pte/Tpr Samuel Johnson WWII serv in 5th Btn & 111th Reg

[Gail O]

Re: My grandfather, Pte Samuel Johnson, Army No.3860073

Hi there,

I hope you are all well. I am thrilled to have come across your online Forum website, so thank you all for making it happen. I hope you can point me in the right direction for some of my queries I have in my grandfather's life story.

Firstly, a little background:
My grandfather is Samuel 'Sammy' Johnson, DOB 12.04.1917, born in Liverpool, moved to & met my Nan, Elizabeth 'Lily' Dawson in Blackpool. They married in Sept 1938 and my mother Patricia Johnson was born on 24 April 1939.
Sammy was conscripted on 18/04/1940 and served, in Defence, for just 3 yrs & 136 days, being discharged on 31/08/43.
After the war Sammy found work both down south in Essex & also worked abroad. Over a number of years my grandparents grew more & more apart until Sammy disappeared from Nan & mum's life around 1950. Around this time Nan got rid of all his things and any photos she had were burnt.
After Nan's death mum & I started our search for clues/information about him and his family via Ancestry. We now have a rough picture of his life, date and place of death  and have been in touch with mum's paternal cousins who mentioned that he disappeared from their parents (his siblings) lives also.

Written description from his Record of Service obtained in 2015 from MOD by my mum (scanned & attached):
Pte Samuel Johnson, Army No.3860073
18/04/1940 
Samuel was conscripted into the RAC, The Loyal Regiment, Infantry Training Centre.
21/06/1940
Transferred to Manchester Regiment and posted to 5th Battalion.
30/09/1941
Mastered as a Tailor, Grade.C, Class.III, under the terms of Army Council Instruction (ACI). 1239 of 1941 (Authy:-129 Inf Bdg No. A/P/1928  Dated 15/08/1941
01/11/1941
Transferred to RAC and posted to 111th Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps (? Regt) 10
The next line, which poss follows on from above, indicates that he has sustained an injury...
Authy* (*presume this means 'is authorised') W.O.U.M* (*Wounded, Outside Under Medical (info found http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/royal-artillery-woum.28412/
)). 7C 20/R.A.C./100 (A.G.I.A.)
Trouper Samuel Johnson, Army No.3860073
19/05/1943 to 20/05/1943
Absent from 19/05/43 to 20/05/43
In close arrest, await trail from 20/05/43 to 03/06/43.
04/06/1943
Trial by J.G.C.M. at Otley on 04/06/43 & convicted of ?? Absent without Leave.
Sentenced to undergo deta for one day. Confirmed at Otley on 04/06/43 by Brig H.C.J. Yeo. D.S.O. Comdg 11 Th. Bde.
Prom?? 04/06/43 to Bh Deta room 04/06/43.
31/08/1943
Trouper Samuel Johnson of 111th Regiment was Discharged on: 31/08/1943
Cause of becoming non-effective: Para 390(XVI) K.R.^s 1940
Permanently unfit for any form of military service
Authy: A.F. ? 179 Dated 29/07/43

The list of reasons for his discharge show that he had been suffering mental health/anxiety/drunkeness issues for 6 months and name a cause of Neurotis? (Neurotic/Neurotia) Hereditary.

My Questions:
I am hoping to find out whether there is a more in-depth report for his injury in 01/11/1941, his absent without leave 19-20/05/1943 & of the medical report for his discharge 31/08/1943. The 'hereditary' diagnosis requires investigation but also the 6 months mental health/anxiety problems could tie in with family/friends army service deaths and another family story.
I have sourced & bought a Defence War Medal 1939/45 but is there a badge for his Tailor qualifications?
Also, what cap & badge/uniform would he have worn during his time in the 5th & then 111th regiments?
Was he in WWII's 3rd group of the 5th regiment? I have seen this explained somewhere. I would like to track the regiment/battalion's movements throughout the UK.
Last but not least, where should I look for his Army photo? Are there any photos of his regiments? I have looked through https://manchester-regiment.org.uk/terms.php but so far can only find history of the regiment & WWI images.

Thank you so much for your time I look forward to your reply.

Best wishes
Gail

[charlie]

Hello Gail and welcome to the forum.
The Loyal (North Lancashire) Regiment Infantry Training Centre was at Fulwood Barracks in Preston. In case it is not clear he joined the Loyals first, was then transferred to the Manchesters and was transferred to the Royal Armoured Corps when the 5th Battalion Manchester Regiment was converted to an armoured regiment - the 111th
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_Regiment_Royal_Armoured_Corps

Authy = Authority not authorizied

His rank is correctly spelled Trooper, Trouper is an actor or entertainer

A.F. = Army Form - in this case Army Form 179

He was mustered, not mastered, as a Tailor, which means he was employed and paid as a Tailor.

He was entitled to two medals, The Defence Medal and the 1939-45 War Medal.

It is very unlikely that there is a surviving in-depth medical report. It would have been filed with his service record which you already have.

I'm sure one of the others will be along to help you further.

Charlie

[Gail O]

Hello Charlie,
Thank you so much for your reply , the corrections & clarity with the addition information.
I guess I should look for his army photo withing The Loyal (North Lancashire) Regiment via the internet and read through the wiki page for 111th regiment.
Thanks again & I look forward to more replies.
Best wishes Gail

[PhilipG]

Gail,

May I offer "undergo detention for one day" -  instead of undergo DETA for one day  ?   He would then become "a soldier under sentence".  PhilipG.

[mack]

hiya guys
ime pretty certain that the army will only give out a soldiers medical report to the soldier himself,not even to his wife,one reason being that there may be embarrasing and sensitive info contained in the report

gail
ime not suggesting your grandfather got up to any mischief as a soldier,it applied to all soldiers

mack

[Gail O]

Hello Philip G & Thank you.
Detention does fit the bill. So Dete rather than Deta.

Hello Mack,
Thank you to for your thought/experience about the medical report being confidential (if one exists at all by now). Army Report actually explains a lot anyway.

Whilst I am replying... I added 4 attachments, pages of the Record of Service, but can only see the 'Medal achieved' page. Perhaps the files were too large and only the last one uploaded

[Gail O]

Sorry, apologies , but I just wanted to add this query.

On the same day (01/11/41) that Sammy is transferred to the Royal Armoured Corps & posted to 111th regiment he gets the injury or is wounded!
Can anyone tell me the name of regt written in the brackets (something to do with his trade, perhaps) and what the ref 'Ref.7C^o 20/RAC/100 (A.G.I.A)' means?

[charlie]

Gail
The regiment in brackets is M/Cr Regt an abbreviation for Manchester Regiment.

The acronym W.O.U.M. in this case must mean something else as it forms part of the Authority for his transfer to the RAC and is not a notification that he was injured.

Charlie

[Gail O]

Thank you, Charlie, for your reply.
This is all marvellous stuff. I can clearly see the M/C^r now.
So, the abbreviations & acronyms which follow the word 'Authority' describe the reason/decision for the transfer.
All good and glad to hear he wasn't injured. Google comes up with all sorts during acronym searches.

[charlie]

Gail,
Yes, the abbreviations etc after authority refer to an instruction/order given by some department or person. They are very hard to make any sense of today but they would have been normal at the time. The Authority for his transfer to the Manchesters and later to the RAC are both ,,Adjutant General Instructions" hence the abbreviation A.G.I. The Adjutant General and his department was responsible for all matters concerning personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjutant-General_to_the_Forces

In your 1st post Prom? = Promulgated i.e. the result of the Court-martial was made known.

Charlie

[PhilipG]

Gail.

Re "My Questions" and the 111th Regiment Royal Armoured Corps (Manchester Regiment).       It would seem that all ranks continued to wear the Manchester Regt. cap badge on the black beret of the Royal Armoured Corps, together with the usual battle dress uniform with appropriate badges.

It occurred to me that if you wanted further information it may be worthwhile writing to the following:-    The Tank Museum, Linsey Road, Bovington, Wareham, BH20 6JG               PhilipG.

[Gail O]

Hi Charlie,
Again, thank you for your further explanations.

Hi Philp,
Thank you for the 'Black Beret & Manchester Regt cap badge' clarity. I will certainly view The Tank Museum website online to find what can be discovered there and continue with any questions I may have.


We have been able to put together the circumstances of the 'absent without leave' day/night with the details of a story that Nan had told my mum.
There will have been much sadness in the family following the death of Sammy's brother-in-law in early 1942 who was aboard the ship S.S. Ocean Venture when it was torpedoed and no doubt other circumstances had added to his state of anxiety .

With regards Army Photo of a soldier. Would Sammy have had his photo taken at the time of being conscripted so therefore wearing The Loyal (North Lancashire) Regiment's uniform or taken after training when he had been posted to a regiment in this case Manchester Regiment 5th Battalion?

Thanks Again everyone, for all your help. This forum has help, enormously, to fill in all the gaps .

Best wishes
Gail

[charlie]

Gail,
There wasn't an official programme for taking photos, any photos taken were either arranged privately or sometimes  taken after completing training or after attending a course of instruction. Most photos that are available have neither names or dates on them.
You could try contacting the Lancashire Infantry Museum and ask if they have any relevant photos, but if you don't have a photo of him to compare, I think your chances of finding a named photo of him are very very small. Good luck.

http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/

Charlie

[Gail O]

Hi Charlie,
OK, I'll try them first and keep my fingers crossed.
I have a rough picture in my mind of how he looked based on my mother's description and photos of his sisters & brothers (circa 1930s) for comparisons. The army file description just clarifies he favours the dark-haired side of his family which we already knew. His height will only show in a 'standing' group photo but at 5'1" he would stand out. Even with my mum noticing a resemblance his army number would need to be displayed to be sure... but you never know and it worth a try.

[charlie]

Hi Gail,
Don't give up, you never know what will turn up, a chance however small is better than no chance

Charlie