George Washington Oliver 12th Battalion

[Alexandra1]

Hello everyone, I have just visited my Great Great Grabdfather's grave in Adanac, Miraumont, Somme. His name was Pte George Washington Oliver 36595 from 12th Batallion Manchester Regiment. He died on 25th August 1918 aged 36. I would like to know if there are any group pictures of the battalion out there so I can possible find a picture of George. Any pictures or information anyone has would be greatly appreciated. I would like to try and create a picture of George's life during the First World War.

His only  son, my great grandfather, died in Normandy just after D Day in WWII leaving no one to tell stories of him so I'm diving in at the deep end to try and do it myself. Please help!

[PhilipG]

Alexandra1,

Welcome.

On the 25th August 1918 at 4 am the battalion attacked the Thiepval Ridge.   The advance went well and Martinpuich was cleared.   However,  for the rest of the day it was held up by heavy machine gun fire.   Unfortunately, the division on the battalion's flank in the course of its withdrawing caused heavy casualties in the battalion.   The

[charlie]

Hello Alexandra1, welcome to the forum.

Your GG Grandfather had previously served with the 16th Bn Manchester Regt. His war gratuity of £9-10s which was paid to his widow Sarah, indicates that he enlisted in June 1916.

The battalion history records the following for the 25th August:

,,On the 23rd at 10.00pm it moved in the Purple Line post in front of Mailly Maillet in support of the attack on Thiepval Ridge. On the 25th at 4.00am the Battalion itself took up the attack on Thiepval Ridge. A and C Companies were in front, B and D Companies in support. The advance was all that could be desired. The battalion took and cleared Martinpuich after which it was held up by heavy machine gun fire for the rest of the day. 21 Division was on the left and the 38th on the right. The latter, by withdrawing from High Wood, left the 12th right flank exposed and this was the cause of the  heavy casualties suffered by the Battalion. Captain TH Dixon, 2/Lts H Code and S Coulter were killed in action. Captain FA Pickles and Lt FL Boardman and 2/Lts S Birkett, JH Oldridge, W Knight and W March MM were wounded and of other ranks there were 28 killed and 113 wounded and missing."

I've nothing to support my thoughts, but could he have been a Manchester Hill survivor? Any one any thoughts please?

Charlie

[PhilipG]

Alexandra1,

Sorry.  Some computer blip at this end deleted the final sentence which was:-

The battalion casualties numbered 9 officers and 141 Other Ranks amongst which must have been your relative.   Regards.  PhilipG.

[Tim Bell]

Hello Alexandra,

The 1911 Census shows George and Sarah had 2 sons and 2 daughters.  The boys were named George Washington and Sidney.  I can't see either of these two men in CWGC records.  Am I missing something?  I was tracking forward, to go back maybe...
I suspect Charlie's hypothesis of a survivor of Manchester Hill is quite strong.  https://www.themanchesters.org/Manchester%20Hill.htm
His enlisting in June 1916, would also be a strong prospect of joining through the Derby Scheme http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

[PhilipG]

Charlie,
Your question as to whether or not this soldier could have been a survivor of the l6th battalion's memorable action at Manchester Hill on the 21st March 1918, prompted me to search "Soldiers Died" for that battalion.   Therein, I discovered reference to 36276 Pte. Timothy Curtin and 36287 Pte Hebert Seddon both kia 21st March 1918.

Perhaps fallaciously, for I am no expert on service numbers, I pose the question to you as to whether the closeness of Pte Oliver's service number to that of Curtin's and Seddon's  is worth considering in this connection?   (Welcome back).  PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

Alexandra1,

Should you again return to the Somme battlefields, there is a memorial in Contalmaison raised in memory of those of the 12th battalion who fell in the Great War.   It is located on the outskirts of Contalmaison at the far end of the village cemetery.  PhilipG.

[Tim Bell]

12th Bttn Memorial

[Tim Bell]

Memorial Plaque

[sphinx]

Hello Alexandra,

The 1911 Census shows George and Sarah had 2 sons and 2 daughters.  The boys were named George Washington and Sidney.  I can't see either of these two men in CWGC records.  Am I missing something?  I was tracking forward, to go back maybe...
I suspect Charlie's hypothesis of a survivor of Manchester Hill is quite strong.  https://www.themanchesters.org/Manchester%20Hill.htm
His enlisting in June 1916, would also be a strong prospect of joining through the Derby Scheme http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

see here

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/183772/oliver,-george-washington/

[charlie]

Thanks Philip,
The two soldiers you found in CWGC have numbers too different to that of Pte Oliver. I had a look in our PoW database and again nothing near to Pte Oliver. I shall have a look in the surviving service records, perhaps with more luck.

I haven't been away,  just busy.

Charlie

[charlie]

Philip,
Further to my last post, I have looked at the surviving service records (6) between 35580 and 36610. The only pattern that emerges is that the majority were, as Tim suggested, Derby Scheme men enlisting at the end of 1915.
Charlie

[Keith Brannen]

As I have posted before, as far as the regimental numbers, I thought those with 5 numbers were given to those that were Derby Scheme (also to Conscripts?). For example, my grandfather, 35507, was, I am fairly certain, a Derby Scheme enlistment (his service record didn't survive, but I have his Z.21 form which has a sign up date of December 11 1915, so seems to give it away that he was a Derby Schemer). He was born 1890, was married, and would have been in Group 31 (call up around April 7 1916).  I found on the Museum of the Manchester Regiment The Men Behind the Medals, a Derby Scheme man who seems to echo my grandfather, also born 1890 and married, Albert Edward Jones, with the number 35328.

So with George Washington Oliver's age, the fact he was married, and his number being 36595 it certain suggests a Derby Scheme sign-up. It also appears that they were given the number on call up, not on Derby Scheme enlistment date.

[charlie]

As I have posted before, as far as the regimental numbers, I thought those with 5 numbers were given to those that were Derby Scheme (also to Conscripts?).

Keith,
5 digit numbers had been used from August 1914, so well before conscription or the Derby Scheme had been thought of. Have a look here its probably the best site on the web for army numbers

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/manchester-regiment-regular-special.html

There are links within the page to the City Bns.

Charlie

[Keith Brannen]

Thanks Charlie, I had seen that link many years ago, and forgot about it! However, from what little research I have done, it appears that the higher numbers (above the 32700) seem to have gone in 1916 on to Derby Scheme men (and probably conscripts, as well) without attachment to battalion. Obviously not a great deal of pattern to the use of numbers as the war went on.