Francis Doherty and Joseph William Hargreaves

[Phil John]

Hi
my name is Phil Hargreaves. I am researching my Grampa (Joseph William Hargreaves 1/8 Ardwick) and my Great Uncle Frank (Francis) Doherty 302131  2/6th Bn.
I have very little info on my Grampa except from what my Dad has told me and what I found on here (kemrobson database... thanks  ) I have found Frank Doherty's info. KIA 21.03.18 Memorial at Pozieres.  Basically finding bits of info here and there as time allows.
I am living in New Zealand. We emigrated here in 1966. I was 8 at the time. I knew my Grampa but was too young to ask him about his service. Dad said he rarely opened up but when he did it was only a little bit about the fighting but mainly the travel to Egypt and humorous stories. 
I am not sure whether he went by his first name Joseph or by his second name William.  He had a nick name with Bill in it.

Thanks,
Phil

Phil Hargreaves
researching Joseph William Hargreaves 1/8 Ardwicks,
Francis (Frank) Doherty  2/6th Bn.

[charlie]

Hello Phil and welcome to the forum.

Frank Doherty's body was found and presumably buried by the Germans. His ID disc was sent to the Central Office for soldiers Effects by a Mobile Echelon Commander. His Red Cross index card is here
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/232529/3/2/
Charlie

[Phil John]

Charlie,
thank you for the unexpected and valuable information. This corroborates what my family had heard / remembered but slightly inaccurately over the years.  I appreciated the time you afforded my research.

Cheers
Phil

p.s. thank you for the welcome

[charlie]

Phil,
A bit more on Francis Doherty.
He previously had the number 5885 prior to being renumbered in 1917. He had originally gone to France with the 2/8th Bn - his long number is an 8th Bn number. His War Gratuity of £8-10s which was paid to his mother, Bridget?, indicates an enlistment date around March 1916.

Do you have Joseph William Hargreaves' number? I have not been able to find him in the medal rolls nor in the 1/8th database which you mention. As far as I can tell the only Hargreaves in the database is John Herbert.

There are two William Hargreaves with service in the 1/8th but no William Joseph:

1711  - 1/8th later 11th Bn
350383 and 1732 - 1/8th and 1/9th Bn


Charlie

[Phil John]

Thanks Charlie.
Yes Frank's mother was Bridget, his father was James. Frank was born 1898, so 1916 sounds accurate for his enlistment. The extra information is interesting. My Mum will be fascinated to learn more of her Uncle Frank.

Joseph William Hargreaves, I don't have any more military info about him. Born 1897 Manchester;   Fought at Gallipoli, Stationed in Egypt, Fought in France and was injured with shrapnel in back. As far as I know he returned to his unit and was demobed after the war.  He could have enlisted under William or just Joseph. I do recall him being know as Joe and Bill.
Died 1974, Manchester.
His belongings were sorted by his daughter(s)..Dad's half sisters. Any memorabilia that he had could have been disposed of without considering its historic family relevance. Dad received nothing relating to his fathers military service time.  Which annoyed him because JWH had his Dad's military diary from his time in India in the 1880's.

Thank you  for looking into Joseph William Hargreaves Charlie. I should retire from work and enjoy myself researching my interests instead

cheers,
Phil

[PhilipG]

Phil John,

                                 302131 Pte Francis Doherty : 2/6th Manchesters

As you will know, this battalion was in action on the 21st March 1918 when the German Army went on the attack and eventually pushed the British Army in retreat some 40 miles back to Villers Bretonneux where a stand was made.  This was some 11 miles from the important rail centre of Amiens, which had it fallen, would have left a route open to the Channel coast.  It was in this connection that General Haig made his famous "backs to the wall" speech.   

The 2/6th battalion were in reserve at the village of Montigny and set off for Hervilly.  However, the battalion was soon forced into a fighting retreat westwards via Roisel (NW of St. Quentin) and Peronne etc finally towards the end of the month, to join a defensive line between Hangard and Villers Bretonneux.

Battalion casualties were heavy and somewhere during that retreat your relative must have fallen.  I hope the foregoing has been helpful.  PhilipG.

[charlie]

Phil,
I think I have got the right Hargreaves family.
Father Thomas William, mother Elizabeth Ann, children Emma Jane, Sarah Eleanor and Joseph William on the 1911 census. On the 1901 census they are: William, Elizabeth, Emma, Eleanor and William. Nothing hard and fast with the order of their forenames

Joseph William, born 16.04.1897, married Georgina Irlam 14.08.1918. His address on the marriage certificate is 72 Eggington St, Rochdale Rd, Manchester.

If he enlisted as William in the 1/8th and there is no positive proof, there are two possiblities as I mentioned in a previous post.

1711 and 300136 William Hargreaves arrived in Egypt on 25.09.1914. The Bn moved from Egypt to Gallipoli. His arrival in Egypt in 1914 and his service number indicate that he served pre war. His service number indicates an enlistment date of 1913, which would have made him 16 - not impossible. He served later with the 11th Bn.

The second possibility is 1732 and 350383 William Hargeaves. He enlisted into the 9th Bn and lived in Dukinfield. He later served with the 1/8th Bn. He arrived at Gallipoli on 09.05.1915 and I presume he went to Egypt with the Bn after the withdrawal from Gallipoli.

If someone has access to the 1918 absent voters list for 72 Eggington St it may confirm things.

Charlie

[Phil John]

PhilipG,
Thank you for your addition to this. This is very helpful information. Yes I was aware of the German Attack, was this known as The German Spring Offensive ? I wasn't aware of how far back we were pushed and the implications of being overrun. Still learning pieces of the jig-saw. The info clarifies how he died and why he ended up in the German records books.
Again, thanks PhilipG

Phil

[Phil John]

Charlie,
Yes you have the correct Hargreaves family and those are quite familiar family names
Again with little information available from personal belongings I will ask my Dad  about him and see if anything you have supplied jogs his memory.

The information that has been offered here on this forum has humbled me. I was not expecting this help. I thought we passed on info about our own research and yes, I guess this would help others   I wish i had more to contribute for others at this stage. Again I am very grateful.

Cheers, Phil

[Phil John]

Charlie,
I phoned Dad yesterday and asked how hi memory was.."Well I'm 82 years old  so what do you reckon our kid?" thats's a good start I told him. He knew his age and who he was talking to
He said JWH is a Collyhurst lad so the Eggington Street address is correct. JWH was commonly known as Billy to his mates so enlisting as William is a very strong possibility. Also enlisting is at the age of 16 is another strong possibility. He left school at 14 and took up a cabinet makers apprenticeship but didn't complete it. Dad has no knowledge of any other job JWH had pre WW1.  The numbers 1711 and 300136 you have supplied are looking likely to be my Grampa's.  This is the closest i have to being able to trace him. Thank you.

Regarding Francis Doherty.(also a Collyhurst lad) I also spoke to Mum and told her of the info supplied here. Yes she was thrilled. She did add to the story of him being killed. Her Dad, Frank's younger brother, had been told that Frank and others were taken prisoner and were being marched back to German territory. Frank made a run for it and was shot trying to escape.  That is what the family understands.

Thanks for the interest and help I have received about my family.
Cheers
Phil

[charlie]

Phil,
1711/300136 looks the most likely to me as well, but as you are well aware a conection to JWH needs to be established. I think the only likely way of doing this is through the 1918 Absent Voters list. I do not know if those for Collyhurst have survived.

If no one is able to help in this respect I suggest you contact the archives at Manchester Library who have some of them and also offer a research service.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_history

Charlie

[mack]

the absent voters registers for Manchester are all available at Manchester library,i have 2 thirds of the register that covers collyhurst but ime not sure I have the collyhurst part of it,the register comes under miles platting,i will check it tomorrow

Charlie.
the red cross page that you posted also contains two Manchester officers and a private,all three are buried in peronne cemetery,the full list contains about 280/300 names,which is close to the amount of unknowns buried at peronne,pte Docherty could be buried amongst them.

mack

[rafboy]

pte Docherty could be buried amongst them.

mack

Mack it's Doherty not Docherty I have a friend of the same name, his is always being said or written wrong.
Cliff

[charlie]

Charlie.
the red cross page that you posted also contains two Manchester officers and a private,all three are buried in peronne cemetery,the full list contains about 280/300 names,which is close to the amount of unknowns buried at peronne,pte Docherty could be buried amongst them.

mack

Mack,
I had a look at the complete list, but it is wrong to connect the 300 names with Peronne. The names have been sent in from all different units and agencies from all parts of the front and on different dates. The part of the list that contains Francis Doherty has 80 names sent in by what looks to be the same unit. The 74 of the 80 which I could find on CWGC are commemorated as follows:

Peronne - 8
Eterpigney - 7
Pozieres Memorial - 34
Arras Memorial - 4
Assevilliers - 18
Ovillers - 2
Brie - 1

The Manchesters on the list are commemorated here:

Pozieres Memorial - 1 x 9th Bn, 1 x 2/8th Bn, 3 x 6th Bn + Pte Doherty.
Peronne - 3 x 2/7th Bn

The 119 2/6th Bn members recorded by the CWGC for the period 21 -31 March 1918 are commemorated as  follows:
Pozieres Memorial - 90
Villeret - 6
St. Sever - 3
Abbeville - 3
Assevillers - 3
Le Cateau - 3
Valenciennes - 2
Bellicourt - 1
Hancourt - 1
Honnechy - 1
Jeancourt - 1
St Souplet - 1
Roisel - 1
Rosieres - 1
Serre Rd No2 - 1
Villers-Bretonneux - 1

[mack]

phil/Charlie
I checked the absent voters register for collyhurst and living at 72 eggington st is pte 300136 joseph,william Hargreaves,11th manchesters.

mack