News:

Have you visited the Battalion histories on our website? Click Here


There is much more information available on our website: Click Here

Main Menu

My wife's maternal grandad

Started by taywaste, August 08, 2017, 10:41:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

taywaste

Hello
We have joined the forum very recently, having spent the last week n Belgium for the centenary commemoration of Passchendaele.
My wife's maternal grandfather, Private Charles Worrall, born 1875, of the 21st Manchesters, service number 40669, formerly of Egerton Street Congleton Cheshire and husbqnd of Hannah Worrall, was killed during the 3rd battle of Ypres, on the 24th October 1917. His body, like so many others, was never found, but he is commemorated on the walls at Tyne Cot cemetery, scene of the main commenmorative event, on the 31st July 2017.
We know so little about him and his time in the Manchesters other than the scant details above and have only a single, poor quality photo of him in uniform and a further formal photo of his family group (wife and then, 5 children, later to be 6 children).
All family members who would have had some knowledge are sadly no longer with us.
We would dearly love to find out more about him and any information woud be very much appreciated.
Helen and Paul 

charlie

Hello and welcome to the forum.
Unfortunately his service record has not survived. He had previously served as 1577 Charles Worrall in the Cheshire Regiment. His war gratuity of 14 pounds 10 shillings, which was paid to his widow Hannah, suggest that he enlisted in August 1914. He did not serve overseas till after the 1st January 1916 as he was only entitled to the British War and Victory Medals. Nothing particular happened on the day he died, the Battalion War Diary has the following entry for the 24th October:

"The Battalion left LITTLE KEMMEL CAMP at 12.40 pm and marched as far as LA CLYTTE where the Battalion embuzzed and was conveyed as far as LOCK 8, 28.I.32.a.9.6., where teas were issued.
The Battalion left LOCK 8 at 5.15 pm on the 24th and proceeded to the line to take up positions of assembly. Battalion Head Quarters was at 28.J.20.d.2.8"

Charlie

timberman

#2
 Hi Helen and Paul
Welcome to the forum

Sadly not everything is written in the war diaries  which can be frustrating.

The following list is the casualties for the 24th October 1917, some have graves
and some do not.

HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY, Ieper, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium

BUTCHER, Private, WILLIAM ROBERT, 51477, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. Died
of wounds 24 October 1917. Son of Robert Charles and Kathleen Maud Butcher, of 33,
Victoria Rd., St. Annes-on-the-Sea, Lancs. Grave Ref. X. G. 2.

LARCH WOOD (RAILWAY CUTTING) CEMETERY, Ieper, West-Vlaanderen,
Belgium


GARTSIDE, Private, H, 29373, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Grave
Ref. II. A. 1.

PERTH CEMETERY (CHINA WALL), Ieper, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium

AYERS, Private, E, 51532, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. Killed in action 24 October
1917. Age 19. Son of Edward and M. A. Ayers, of 25, Mariner St., Swansea. Grave Ref.
V. L. 9.

FOLEY, Private, J, 18579, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. Killed in action 24 October
1917. Grave Ref. V. L. 2.

GOODFELLOW, Private, JAMES HENRY, 55368, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 27. Son of Elizabeth and the late William Goodfellow; husband of
Margaret E. Goodfellow, of Bridge Farm, Reydon, Southwold, Suffolk. Grave Ref. II. K.
49.

HAMPSON, Private, JOSEPH BRIERLEY, 28420, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 22. Son of Luke and Martha Ann Hampson, of 26, Herbert St.,
Watersheddings, Oldham, Lancs. Grave Ref. VI. K. 3.

HOUSLEY, Corporal, F, 245473, M M, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 26. Husband of Ethel Housley, of 110, Limpsfield Rd., Brightside, Sheffield.
Grave Ref. VI. F. 1.

JEFFERIES, Private, H E, 49562, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Grave Ref. III. E. 10.

JONES, Private, ROWLAND, 53284, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 30. Son of Samuel and Mary Jones; husband of Lily Jones, of 290, Plodder Lane,
Farnworth, Bolton. Grave Ref. IV. J. 8.

LINNEY, Lance Corporal, ALBERT, 8720, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. Killed in
action 24 October 1917 - 27 October 1917. Age 25. Son of William Linney, of 102, West
Park St., Salford, Manchester, and the late Mary Eliza Linney. Grave Ref. IV. J. 10.

LLEWELLYN, Private, I, 51502, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Grave Ref. IV. B. 11.

MASKREY, Private, J, 19200, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 24.
Husband of Elizabeth Maskrey, of 26, Flixton Rd., Urmston, Manchester. Grave Ref. I.
H. 20.

OVEN, Private, A, 48335, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 31. Son
of James and Isabelle Oven, of Ardwick, Manchester; husband of Florence Reeves
(formerly Oven), of 148, Church St., Bradford, Manchester. Grave Ref. III. E. 8.

RICHARDSON, Private, S, 48387, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Grave Ref. V. L. 3.

SLADE, Private, W J, 203080, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Grave
Ref. V. G. 13.

TANSLEY, Private, L, 49585, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Grave
Ref. IV. G. 6.

TYNE COT CEMETERY, Zonnebeke, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium

CHEETHAM, Lance Corporal, G H, 1532, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Grave Ref. LII. H. 11.

BADLEY, Lance Corporal, GEORGE ROBERT, 41225, 21st Bn., Manchester
Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 35. Husband of Gertrude Badley, of 144, Queen's Rd.,
Gorton, Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

BASNETT, Private, WILLIAM FREDERICK, 18798, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment.
24 October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

BASSETT, Private, JAMES, 14416, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

BENTLEY, Private, GEORGE ALBERT PAUL, 51643, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment.
24 October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

BRADLEY, Private, DOUGLAS, 24704, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 37. Husband of Mary A. Bradley, of 78, Teignmouth St., Collyhurst,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

CARRINGTON, Private, JAMES ROBINSON, 47716, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment.
24 October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

CARROLL, Private, WILLIAM, 51534, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 40. Son of the late William and Ellen Carroll; husband of the late Elizabeth
Carroll. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

CAWLEY, Private, JOHN, 26450, "A" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 20. Son of Mr. and Mrs. J. Cawley, of 22, Thomas St., Hulme, Manchester.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

COLEMAN, Corporal, JAMES ALBERT, 46499, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 24. Son of Annie Coleman, of 17, Beechwood Rd., Ranelagh, Dublin,
and the late Edward Coleman; husband of Ida Rosalind V. Coleman, of 33, Hartismere
Rd., Wallasey, Cheshire. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

CONNOLLY, Private, CHARLES WILLIAM, 51718, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment.
24 October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

COUPE, Private, CHADWICK, 49054, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

COXEY, Corporal, WILLIAM HENRY, 19093, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

DAWSON, Serjeant, GEORGE ARTHUR, 251171, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

DUFFIN, Private, ARTHUR, 39679, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 26. Son of James and Mary Jane Duffin, of 3, Brunswick St., Shaw, Oldham. Panel
120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

ECKERSLEY, Private, JAMES, 38428, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

EXELBY, Private, WILLIAM, 53288, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 25. Son of Elizabeth Exelby, of 8, Clayburn St., Hulme, Manchester. Panel 120 to
124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

FENLON, Private, PETER, 52884, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 18. Son of William and Mary Fenlon, of Liverpool. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to
162A and 163A.

FENNA, Private, SAMUEL, 10389, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 22. Son of Fred and Elizabeth Ellen Fenna, of 21B, Clowes St., West Gorton,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

FORBES, Private, WILLIAM, 38664, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 24. Brother of Thomas Forbes, of 38, Hyde Rd., Gorton, Manchester. Panel 120 to
124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

FOX, Serjeant, THOMAS, 26087, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

GOULDING, Private, THOMAS JAMES, 20694, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HALL, Private, JAMES, 51651, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age
20. Son of Patrick and Elizabeth Hall, of 10, Heseldon Terrace, Waterworks, Murton
Colliery, Co. Durham. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HARGREAVES, Private, WILLIAM, 14841, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HARRISON, Private, WALTER, 52901, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 19. Son of William and Sabina Harrison, of 446, Price St., Birkenhead,
Cheshire. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HELME, Serjeant, JAMES, 19404, "D" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 34. Husband of Mary Emma Helme, of 29, Gloucester St., Gorton,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HIGHAM, Private, JAMES, 29052, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 33. Husband of Mrs. S. E. Higham, of 71, Linney St., Wigan. Panel 120 to 124 and
162 to 162A and 163A.

HILLYARD, Lance Corporal, WALTER, 43517, "A" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester
Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 21. Son of Harry William and Mary Hillyard, of 30,
Hyde Grove, Plymouth Grove, Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HIND, Corporal, STANLEY EDWARD, 43462, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HOPE, Private, JONATHAN, 51768, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HOPWOOD, Lance Serjeant, THOMAS, 23101, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HOWARD, Private, STANLEY HORACE, 52899, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 19. Son of Betsy Howard, of 179, Portland St., Southport, Lancs.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HUMBLE, Private, WILLIAM JAMES MCLAREN, 51512, 21st Bn., Manchester
Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 22. Son of Mary Ann Humble, of Embleton Cottage,
Embleton, Alnwick, Northumberland, and the late William Humble. Panel 120 to 124
and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HUNTER, Private, DANIEL, 51513, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

HYDE, Private, CHARLES WHITTAM, 52895, 21st Bn, Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917 - 27 October 1917. Son of James Hyde, of 42, Worrell Street, Stockport.
Addenda Panel.

KAY, Private, GEORGE HARRY, 11087, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 26. Son of Ann Kay, of 17, Parratt St., North Rd., Longsight, Manchester.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

KIRBY, Private, LUTHER DIXON, 51653, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 26. Son of James G. and Jane Ellen Kirby, of 15, Second St., Crookhall,
Leadgate, Co. Durham; husband of Mrs. S. H. Bradley (formerly Kirby), of 82,
Broadway, Deerscroft, Doncaster. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

LEWTHWAITE, Private, WILLIAM, 52915, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 19. Son of James Richard and Ann Lewthwaite, of 93, Duke St.,
Cleator Moor, Cumberland. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

LOCKER, Private, FREDERICK, 39819, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 20. Son of Frederick and Ada Locker, of 62, Redvers St., Ardwick,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

LUNT, Private, ERNEST, 277369, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 19. Nephew of Mrs. M. E. Johnson, of 35, Florin St., Pendleton, Salford. Panel 120
to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

LYNE, Private, THOMAS, 31103, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 24. Son of John R. and Alice Ann Lyne, of 288, Hollins Rd., Oldham. Panel 120 to
124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

LYON, Private, HAROLD, 31123, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

MAHON, Private, FRANK, 28153, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

MALTBY, Private, THOMAS SAMUEL, 51774, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

MARSHALL, Private, THOMAS, 14521, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

MAXWELL, Private, GILBERT, 51740, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 27. Husband of Mrs. Emma Maxwell, of 73, Hollis Croft, Sheffield. Panel 120
to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

McDONALD, Private, JAMES, 51658, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 24. Son of the late James McDonald. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and
163A.

NEALE, Private, JOSEPH, 35509, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

NICHOLSON, Private, MATTHEW EDMUND, 51777, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment.
24 October 1917. Age 20. Son of Fletcher and Elizabeth Ann Nicholson, of 107,
Harrington Rd., Workington, Cumberland. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

OLIVER, Serjeant, JOHN, 18673, "B" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 34. Husband of Rose Oliver, of 36, Darley St., Gorton, Manchester. Panel 120
to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

PAWLEY, Private, EDWARD, 35407, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 33. Son of the late Sam Henry and of Mary Ann Pawley; husband of Selina Pawley,
of 100, Audenshaw Rd., Audenshaw, Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and
163A.

PHILLIPS, Private, FREDERICK, 49952, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 21. Son of Robert Arthur and Sarah Jane Phillips, of 17, Lower Crimble,
Bamford, Rochdale. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

PICTON, Private, FREDERICK, 52825, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

PRICE, Private, RICHARD BRIGHT, 52827, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

ROCKLIFF, Private, JAMES, 39337, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 20. Son of Mrs. Mary Rockliff, of 85, High King Street, Dalton-in-Furness, Lancs.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

ROWELL, Private, GEORGE, 51664, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

RULTON, Private, SYDNEY JAMES, 51518, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

SEDDON, Private, JOHN, 46646, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age
26. Son of James Seddon, of 35, Lancaster St., Hulme, Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and
162 to 162A and 163A.

SENIOR, Private, THOMAS WILLIAM, 51743, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 33. Son of Jonathan and Martha Senior, of Green Top Farm.
Hoylandswaine, Penistone; husband of Elsie Collingwood (formerly Senior), of 12,
Milton St., Maltby, Rotherham. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

SHARPLES, Serjeant, RICHARD, 32779, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

SHAW, Private, EDWARD CECIL, 203113, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 19. Son of Mr. G. T. and Mrs. Ada Shaw, of 26, Green St., Higher Openshaw,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

STEELE, Lance Corporal, JOHN, 40629, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 21. Son of Thomas and Alice Ann Steele, of 25, South Park Rd., Macclesfield.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

STIRRUP, Private, RICHARD RIVER JOSEPH, 45163, 21st Bn., Manchester
Regiment. 24 October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

STUDHOLME, Private, JOSEPH, 51783, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 23. Son of Joseph and Sarah H. Studholme, of Station House, Dearham,
Maryport; husband of Nancy Studholme, of "Solway View," Dearham, Maryport,
Cumberland. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

SUNDERLAND, Private, HAROLD, 203114, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

TAYLOR, Corporal, WILLIAM HENRY, 15621, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

THOMAS, Private, WALTER HENRY, 25667, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

TURNER, Private, SAMUEL LYMER, 37964, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 39. Husband of Charlotte Turner, of 41, Parkfield Avenue,
Rusholme, Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

TURNER, Private, TOM M., 49153, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 33. Husband of Ethel Turner, of 16, Jackson St., Abbey Hey, Gorton, Manchester.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

TURNER, Corporal, WILLIAM, 35419, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

TURRELL, Private, WILLIAM GEORGE, 40181, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 20. Son of Mary Turrell, of 3, Burleigh Cottage, Hanbury,
Bromsgrove, Worcs., and the late William Turrell. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A
and 163A.

TYSON, Private, GEORGE, 48175, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

VAUGHAN, Private, JOHN T., 51507, "C" Coy. 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 20. Son of the late J. H. and Maria Vaughan, of 33, Cross St., Barry
Dock, Glam. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WALKER, Lance Corporal, THOMAS, 245477, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 19. Son of Mr. and Mrs Mary Walker, of 48, Upper George St.,
Rochdale. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WALTERS, Private, WILLIAM, 38449, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 37. Husband of Rose Walters, of 9, Knowles St., Pendleton, Manchester. Panel
120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WARHURST, Private, THOMAS HENRY, 48868, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 32. Brother of Joseph Warhurst, of 43, Midlothian St., Clayton,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WATTS, Private, ALFRED H., 51748, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WHITEHEAD, Private, HERBERT, 27545, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WILKINSON, Private, THOMAS, 25821, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 22. Son of Mrs. Elizabeth Ellen Wilkinson, of 171, Tipping St., Ardwick,
Manchester. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WITKISS, Private, ALBERT, 48781, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Age 27. Husband of Elizabeth Witkiss, of 52, Albert St., Newton Heath, Manchester.
Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WORRALL, Private, CHARLES, 40669, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October
1917. Age 42. Husband of Hannah Worrall, of 32, Egerton, Congleton, Cheshire. Panel
120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

WORTHINGTON, Private, JAMES NICHOLAS, 52643, 21st Bn., Manchester
Regiment. 24 October 1917. Age 40. Husband of Esther Worthington, of 81, Belmont St.,
Oldham. Panel 120 to 124 and 162 to 162A and 163A.

ZANTVOORDE BRITISH CEMETERY, Zonnebeke, West-Vlaanderen, Belgium
JONES, Private, E, 52908, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917. Grave Ref.
VI. G. 1.

MULCRONE, Private, W, 29670, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 October 1917.
Grave Ref. VI. D. 20.

RICHARDSON, Lance Corporal, JOSEPH, 53274, 21st Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24
October 1917. Age 23. Son of William and Elizabeth Richardson, of 65, Argyll Rd.,
Preston. Grave Ref. IV. L. 13.

Timberman

timberman

#3
The following account is taken from the book that explains why so many
soldiers were killed.

The 21st Battalion The Manchester Regiment A History.

There is one for sale on Amazon.

Click on the picture to make it bigger.

Timberman

charlie

The CWGC records the following deaths for the Battalion:
24th Oct - 101
25th Oct - 2
26th Oct - 12
27th Oct - 12

There is something here clearly amiss and I suggest the number of deaths for the 24th is in most cases incorrect due to a misinterpretation of the battalion Casualty Return. The Casualty Return only records the Other Rank casualties for the period 24-27 October - 27 KiA, 92 Missing and 173 wounded. Officer casualties are recorded on a daily basis.

The Operational summary for the 24-27th records two slight casualties on the 24th, that casualties were taken while dug in on the 25th and 24 casualties during the relief on the 27th. The remainder of the above mentioned casualties would have occured during the attack on the 26th during which the Battalion was the centre battalion on the brigade front.

I think it is highly improbable that the Battalion suffered 101 deaths during the move to the front line and only 12 battle fatalities.

Charlie

taywaste

Thank you for those replies
There is much information new to us. We only had the scant details in our post.
It is also very confusing as to what happened where and when. If our understaing is correct it would seem that he probably died sometime between the 24th and 27th October 1917?
Is it stated anywhere where the 21sts actually were in that period? Charlie's reply gives what we presume are some sort of map references, are they identifiable? Timberman's reply detail suggests a different scenario.
Thank you Timberman for details of the book. We have seen grandad's memorial at Tyne Cot, but did not realise how many of the 21st were possibly killed at the same time as pvt Worrall.
Are there any other references we could use?
Many thanks again
Helen and Paul

PhilipG

Helen & Paul,

The records I have in respect of "3rd Ypres" for the 24th October 1917 are very meagre suggesting a "quiet interlude".   However, there are indications that the 21st Manchesters, who belonged to the 7th Division (91 Brigade), took part in the relief of the 39th Division by the 7th Division on that day.  Perhaps the death of Pte Worrall took place during that relief.

In the matter of casualties suffered by the battalion on the 26th October, consequent upon the Second Battle of Passchendaele, a different picture emerges.  In that respect the battalion's casualties of All Ranks numbered some 306.   As Charlie indicates, there is something adrift in the matter of the report of casualties.   I see that your relative was 42 years old.  How he was able to cope with those terrible conditions prevailing in the Salient fighting, suggests he was a brave soldier.   PhilipG.

charlie

#7
Helen and Paul,
I think you are correct to assume that he was killed sometime between the 24th and 27th but probably not on the 24th. The detail which has been attached by Timberman, as regards the Battalion, confirms what is written in the War Diary (attached).

If there is any confusion as to the date of his death it has been caused by the CWGC using the first date of the period recorded on the Casualty Return (attached). If there had been 101 fatalities on the 24th, one would also expect a corresponding amount of wounded, which would have reduced the Battalion strength of 19 Officers and 512 Other ranks by probably 50%. Any such losses prior to the attack would be of great concern, as the ability of the Battalion and Brigade to obtain their objectives would have been seriously compromised. There are no records, either at Battalion or Brigade level to suggest that casualties of this level were sustained on the 24th.

If, and I have no doubt in my mind that this is not the case, 101 fatalities occurred on the 24th, where are the heavy casualties sustained on the 26th? The War Diary report on the actions of the 26th records "A Company practically decimated", "B Company suffered exceedingly heavy casualties" and "C Company reduced to four men" This suggests more fatalities than the 12 recorded by the CWGC - of which 6 are Officers who are correctly recorded in the War Diary as being killed on the 26th.

You are right to think the letters/numbers are map references and the location of the Battalion is identifiable. Attached is part of a map showing the Battalion boundaries and starting line for the 26th. The detail has been taken from this map which can be downloaded.

http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A66715/-/collection

If you require help in reading map references on a Trench Map there is a good explanation here:

http://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/MapRefNo

Charlie



taywaste

Thank you both, PhilipG and Charlie
There are a nmber of things to think about and follow up there.
We knew so little about Pte Worrall before joining the forum and the complexities of the army structure and deployment of the time, amid such chaos and appalling conditions. The commemorations in Ypres on the 30th July and Tyne Cot on the 31st, during which we enjoyed lovely weather, a far cry from 100 years ago, did a lot to set it all in context and give real and graphic illustration of the appalling loss so many sufferered and indeed still suffer today.
We are grateful for your comments, about Grandad, Philip, we were surprised that he enlisted in 1914 in the Cheshires, as he seems to have been one of the older recruits, but another way of looking at it is that, he had at least had some life, when so many involved did not. Still tragic for his wife and children nevertheless, at least two of whom had no memory of him.
Thank you both again
Helen and Paul