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Thomas Willmot Owen, 11th Battallion, No 9486

Started by ajs, August 01, 2017, 07:48:55 PM

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ajs

Hello,

I am very new to this and have recently started to research the history of my great grandfather, Thomas Willmot Owen.  I have his service records and he is buried at Cement House in West Flanders. His service number was 9486 and was in the Manchester Regiment, 11th Battalion.  He is assumed as having died on 4 October 1917 and that date is recorded on his headstone, of which we have a photograph and plot number.  We will visit his grave in October of this year with my mother, his granddaughter.  No family have visited before. 

I have spent a long time recently and have been unable to find any exact details of his movements.  He signed up on 26 Feb 1915.  There are several postings on the record starting in November 1915 in France but I am unable to read the details after. There is also a mention of 14th Corp and 17th Battallion?  I would be very grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of any more sources of information and am wondering as to whether I can assume he died at Broodseinde Ridge, given the date?

I have searched for any individual or group photographs with no success. We do not have a photograph of him.

Many thanks

charlie

Hello Ajs and welcome to the forum.
Your G Grandfathers service record is quite extensive, lucky you!

Enlisted 17th Bn 26.2.1915
BEF France 08.11.1915
Posted to 18th Bn 23.12.1915
Admitted 94Field Ambulance with impetigo 15.03.1916
Admitted 55 FA 20.03.1916 - impetigo
Admitted 27 FA 24.06.1916 - impetigo
Admitted 21 CCS 01.07.1916 - impetigo
Admitted 5 General Hospital 02.07.1916 - impetigo
Posted to Depot 07.07.1916
Posted 23rd Bn 22.07.1916
Posted 3rd Bn 30.09.1916
To BEF 12.01.1917
30 IBD Etaples 13.01.1917
Posted 21st Bn 10.02.1917
Admitted 23 FA 12.05.1917 - Shrapnel wound right forearm
Admitted 49 CCS - 12.05.1917
Admitted 20 GH  13.05.1917
To England on SS Cambria - 18.05.1917
Posted from 3rd Bn to BEF 28.07.1917
30 IBD 29.07.1917
Joined 11th Bn 02.09.1917

Charlie

PhilipG

ajs,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.  The 11th Manchesters were in 34th Brigade which was a component of the 11th (Northern) Division and took part in the Battle of Broodseinde  on the 4th October 1917.

The Division attacked at 6.0 am with two brigades (No's 34 & 33) and ten tanks of "D" battalion - 1st Tank Brigade.    The Manchesters attacked alongside the 9th Lancs. Fusiliers with the 5th Dorsets in support.   During the advance the Manchesters repulsed an attack by the enemy which they were able to defeat using small arms fire.  However, later in the day they were held up by enemy fire from the Poelcapelle church area and a brewery there, but with the help of a trench mortar and two tanks their objective was achieved.  Units of both brigades later entered Poelcapelle.     PhilipG.

ajs

My goodness, thank you so much, both of you!  I never dreamt that there would be so much information. I am completely overwhelmed and am going to take my time reading through and understanding it all.  I am expecting that it will be a very emotional visit to West Flanders and have become quite obsessed with researching him and the war generally, particularly at such a poignant time. 

Thanks again

Amanda

mack

hiya Amanda
if you go in the city battalions photo project section,theres a group photo that includes your great grandfather,he was in the 17th manchesters,E.company,XX platoon.

mack

charlie

Amanda,
According to the CWGC he was originally buried at map reference 20SE3.V.19.d.2.1. which is marked by a red square on the attached map. Presumably in the trench running through the square.

A link to the complete map which is overlaid on a modernday map
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.979999999999999&lat=50.9209&lon=2.9592&layers=101464627&b=1

Charlie

ajs

Quote from: mack on August 02, 2017, 01:30:59 AM
hiya Amanda
if you go in the city battalions photo project section,theres a group photo that includes your great grandfather,he was in the 17th manchesters,E.company,XX platoon.

mack

Mack - many thanks, I did find the photo last night. Unfortunately I have no idea what he looks like and I presume that they are not positioned in order of the list? Still it is wonderful to know we have a photo and that he is on there somewhere with his comrades.

Thanks again
Amanda

ajs

Quote from: charlie on August 02, 2017, 06:37:38 AM
Amanda,
According to the CWGC he was originally buried at map reference 20SE3.V.19.d.2.1. which is marked by a red square on the attached map. Presumably in the trench running through the square.

A link to the complete map which is overlaid on a modernday map
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.979999999999999&lat=50.9209&lon=2.9592&layers=101464627&b=1

Charlie

Charlie - thanks so much. We were aware that he was buried elsewhere first from the miscellaneous correspondence my mum has.  She also has the missing in action, missing presumed dead letters.  But to have this additional information about where exactly is wonderful, which I am assuming may lead us to where he actually died.

Thanks again
Amanda

Tim Bell

Hi Amanda,

I've spent a lot of time looking a the Concentration Records that Charlie refers to.  Thomas was buried on his own in an isolated plot, that was probably in the ditch / trench next to the road shown on the plan.  In other instances we find groups of burials in a particular location and these are more likely to have involved the bodies being relocated when a burial party cleared a battlefield - then concentrated when the farmland was reinstated.  It is therefore more likely (not certain) Thomas was lying near to where he fell. 

He may have been killed in the trench, or moved a short distance before burial.  As his Pay Book (AB64) was found on his body, I'd assume this would normally have been removed for family members prior to burial, suggesting it was more likely he was killed in the trench and his body covered over or missed with the continuing action.  Then again, the absence of his ID disc indicates someone buried him, so all a little inconclusive.  It's certainly worth visiting the ditch when you get the chance.

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. I'm particularly intigued to find Thomas transfering from 17th to 18th Bttn in Dec 1915.  I've not seen that happening before at that stage.  I wonder if he had a family member in 18th Bttn?

Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
[url="http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/"]http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/[/url]

charlie

Amanda,
I agree with Tim as to the circumstances of his burial. The Regimental Records Office was informed that his body had been found in a letter dated August 1920. The square I marked on the map is only 50 yards by 50 yards square, so it is a relatively accurate place of burial.

The Medal Roll for his War and Victory Medals records that he was only attached to the 18th Bn. He was treated in England for the wound to his arm at Gravesend Military Hospital and was discharged as fit on 29.06.1917 after 36 days in hospital. While with the 21st Bn he served with A Company.

Charlie

PhilipG

Charlie,

One thing regarding this soldier's service record which caught my eye was the length of time the poor man suffered from impetigo.  (I caught this nasty disease in March 1943 caused by infected blankets issued to me by the ship's stores.) PhilipG.

ajs

Quote from: Tim Bell on August 02, 2017, 01:53:29 PM
Hi Amanda,

I've spent a lot of time looking a the Concentration Records that Charlie refers to.  Thomas was buried on his own in an isolated plot, that was probably in the ditch / trench next to the road shown on the plan.  In other instances we find groups of burials in a particular location and these are more likely to have involved the bodies being relocated when a burial party cleared a battlefield - then concentrated when the farmland was reinstated.  It is therefore more likely (not certain) Thomas was lying near to where he fell. 

He may have been killed in the trench, or moved a short distance before burial.  As his Pay Book (AB64) was found on his body, I'd assume this would normally have been removed for family members prior to burial, suggesting it was more likely he was killed in the trench and his body covered over or missed with the continuing action.  Then again, the absence of his ID disc indicates someone buried him, so all a little inconclusive.  It's certainly worth visiting the ditch when you get the chance.

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread. I'm particularly intigued to find Thomas transfering from 17th to 18th Bttn in Dec 1915.  I've not seen that happening before at that stage.  I wonder if he had a family member in 18th Bttn?

Tim

Thank you Tim, once again I am amazed at the level of detail you have been able to provide.  We do not know anything about the Pay Book or ID disc (or his medals). We will definitely visit the ditch and surrounding area in October.  From reading the letters my mother does have I was under the impression that it was a while before his body was found and until recently when we found the grave records she was unsure as to whether he had been found at all. On the burial record which I have seen it seems he was initially buried as an unknown soldier, this is then crossed out and his details entered. 

The issue of moving battalions was one I wanted to ask - he seems to have moved through quite a few different ones, and I was wondering whether this was normal?

Thanks

Amanda

ajs

Quote from: charlie on August 02, 2017, 07:40:26 PM
Amanda,
I agree with Tim as to the circumstances of his burial. The Regimental Records Office was informed that his body had been found in a letter dated August 1920. The square I marked on the map is only 50 yards by 50 yards square, so it is a relatively accurate place of burial.

The Medal Roll for his War and Victory Medals records that he was only attached to the 18th Bn. He was treated in England for the wound to his arm at Gravesend Military Hospital and was discharged as fit on 29.06.1917 after 36 days in hospital. While with the 21st Bn he served with A Company.

Charlie

Thanks again Charlie for this valuable information. On the earlier post, I had noted that he sailed to England on 18 May and returned to BEF (3rd Battalion) on  28 July 1917. So in between this time he was treated in Gravesend.  Would it also be possible that he visited home?.  His third daughter was born on 8 April 1918, obviously after his death, and I has always wondered whether soldiers returned home, these dates certainly fit in if he had.

Thanks

Amanda

charlie

Amanda,
He was passed fit for duty by the OC Central Hospital Chatham on 29.06.1917 and granted leave from 30.06.1917 till 09.07.1917 after which he must have reported to the 3rd Bn in Cleethorpes. It is possible that he was also granted a few days embarkation leave before returning to France.

In answer to the question "Have you ever served in any branch of His Majesty's Forces" on his attestation form, "3rd Bn Manchester Regt (Militia)" has been entered. This would indicate that he was a pre war part time soldier. There is no further information recorded as to when and for how long.

Transfers between battalions were commonplace when a soldier was absent from his battalion due to wounds or sickness etc for an extended period.

Philip, I agree it was a long time, over three months!

Charlie


pete th

#14
Amanda, Thomas served with 'R' company while he was with the 11th Manchesters. He was originally posted as wounded on 4th October but must have passed away before he could be moved from the front line.

I've attached a map showing the direction of the attack from the blue line (start) to the red line (objective) near Poelcappelle. The church and brewery are shown on the map, the church close to the centre of the village and the brewery above and slightly to the right of the village.

On Monday I cycled this route to follow in the footsteps of the 11th Manchesters (St Julien to Poelcappelle). If you look on a modern map of Poelcappelle (Google maps) the N313 is the road shown on the trench map to the left of the attack and entering the village of Poelcappelle from the south. If you drive from the Brooding Soldier along the N313 towards Poelcappelle and look to your right, this is the area they covered.

Hope you have a great trip to Flanders.

Regards
Pete
Remembering

Pte Sidney Lee (36719), 2nd Battalion, Worcestershire Regt - dow 18.02.17
Sgt Charles Roberts (13668), 11th Bn, Manchester Regiment - kia 18.05.18
Bombardier John Hesford (70065), 147th Heavy Battery, RGA dow - 04.09.18
Pte Sidney Lee (4131324), 8th Bn, Cheshire Regiment -  kia 12.03.41