Cpl 2335 John James Sellars 1/8th Battalion Manchester Regiment.

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Thanks to members i have discovered that my GGF served in both the Boer war and WW1.  I have some good detail about the Boer War but im posting on here to see if anyone can help fill in the gaps about his WW1 service etc.  What i know already is:

He joined the 1/8th Battalion Manchester Regiment having already served in the 5th Volunteer Bat during the Boer war
He served in Gallipoli, arriving in Egypt on the 5/11/1914 with the rank of Corporal (2335). 
He was promoted to Warrant Officer second class and transferred to the Labour Corps (621561). 
He returned to the UK as a Sergeant discharged 15/07/19

He got the British War Medal, the Victory Medal and the 1914/15 Star

Many Thanks
Matt

[themonsstar]

Hit Mat

Labour Corps Numbers and dates

603700 to around 621000 May-Aug 1918 mainly PoW Companies.
621000 to around 622800 Oct-Nov 1918 in Egypt.

[charlie]

Matt,
May I ask what source you have found that indicates that he returned to the UK as a Sgt and also that which gives his discharge date.

I think there is something amiss with the entries on his MiC for the 1914-15 Star. A slip that was included with the Star states:

"The rank engraved on this “1914-15 Star” is the permanent rank held on disembarkation with the Expeditionary Force, any subsequent promotion granted are not shown on the Star."

As the Labour Corps was not raised till 1917 the entry for Cpl Manchester Regiment is the only possibility.

His transfer to the Labour Corps indicates that he became unfit for front line duties with an Infantry regiment, possibly due to sickness or a wound.

Charlie

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Hi Charlie, thanks for the response i have attached the document i have

thanks in advance

matt

[charlie]

Many thanks Matt. It is interesting to see that his rank is given as Sgt, as I said before I do not really understand why it has been entered on his 1914-15 Star MiC as it could have no bearing on the naming on the Star. Is there anything different regarding his rank at disembodiment on the BWM and VM roll?

One possible reason for his apparent demotion is that he was holding a post for a time that required him to be a WO2 and when he relinquished the post he was required to revert to his substansive rank ie Sgt. The rank engraved on the BWM and VM was the highest rank, whether temporary, acting or substansive, held in a theatre of war before 11.11.1918.

You will have noticed that the medal roll states that he was disembodied on 15.07.1919, which is not quite the same as discharged. It is a term used only for Territorial Force soldiers when they were stood down from full time service. They were governed by the TF regulations and had to be embodied on mobilization to enable the Army to have legal authority over them. Disembodiment may have included discharge but a soldier may have continued to serve further. It was possible for a soldier to serve up to age 55.

There is an interesting article on the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907 here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_and_Reserve_Forces_Act_1907

Charlie

[PaulJC]

Hi Matt,
I cannot add to what you already know but your GGF would have served alongside my GF. John Charles Beckwith, service number 2189 in the 1/8th Battalion. As you would expect, the dates of transfer to Egypt and service in Gallipoli match with my grandfathers. Even more of a co-incidence is that their ranks were the same although at slightly different times. I guess we will never know if they knew each other but I suppose there was a chance. How large such groups of men were is for the experts on here and whether its possible to search below battalion level?
Regards,
Paul

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Thanks Charlie and PaulJC. 

I suppose he could have been given the rank whilst back in the UK and whilst he would have still be in the TF ?  Probably never know, his other medals are not listed as Sgt.

It's fascinating that he served in both the Boer war and WW1 and would have seen action in both. 

Fantastic Paul, i dont have any photos but if you do could you post?  thanks  Matt

[PaulJC]

Hi Matt,
Some pictures. A very young grandfather about to ship to Egypt. Then some other pictures with part of his company. Who knows, one of them could be your GGF.......
One after the war had ended and he was still part of the army before going to serve in Ireland.
Regards,
Paul

[sphinx]

Interesting to see on the 1st photo the Sun Helmet badges which are a red 8 over a red MANCHESTER on a yellow trapezoid shaped flash worn on the pagri and below which is the unique Battalion 2" long strip of Black, red and green, reflecting their Rifle connections back in their Volunteer era.

regards

[PaulJC]

Hi Sphinx
Many thanks for that information which was new to me. I did post these photos sometime ago on this forum under a different topic and one or two members were kind enough to tell me that on the later group photo the markings on his sleeve (hes the one holding the cat and wearing football boots....) are to indicate wounds and service abroad. Like Matt, I had an issue with his rank and the medals.
Paul 

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Wow, even to see their uniform is amazing.  You never know Paul..  Ill get my auntie to dig some photos out

thanks

matt