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Manchester Hill

Started by Graham, September 09, 2013, 01:47:31 PM

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Graham

Hi

I am preparing a military obituary for Arthur Ivan Gilman , private 377029 16th Battalion Manchester Regiment, who died on the 21st March on Manchester Hill. Arthur was born in Hoxne, Suffolk in 1894 and moved to Tadcaster or its surrounding area sometime after 1911. He married a Bilborough girl at Tadcaster in the quarter ending December 1917.

I do not know the date when Arthur joined up (or was conscripted) nor where he was trained prior to going to France. I appreciate that it is unlikely that any information will directly relate to Arthur but an idea of what his life would have been like in the Regiment at this time would be very useful. I would also be grateful if anyone could identify the company/platoon he served in prior to his death, I note that there are a number of photographs of the 16th Battalion but am not sure if these relate to Arthur's period in the service.

The excellent article concerning the Manchester Hill action has been very useful though in the list of the dead/missing Arthur's address is recorded as 43 Low Street, Diss, Norfolk whereas it should be 43 Low Street, Hoxne, Suffolk.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am also preparing obituaries for the other 13 village lads who died during the Great War and are recorded on the memorial in our church.

With regards,

Graham

tonyrod

#1
hi Graham, Arthur Ivan Gilman enlisted in York in to the The King's Own  Yorkshire light infantry,  no/22622 not sure when he was drafted in to the manchester regiment, but all his training would have been with with the yorkshire  light
49, Low St., Hoxne, Diss, was his fathers address
he went over with the yorkshire light, 18/9/1915  his medal card  is listed Arthur J  Gilman with the numbers

22622 Yorkshire light
377029 manchester regiment
5035    manchester regiment,
its clearly  a error with the  I looking like a j   on both I FOR IVAN  and I IN INFANTRY but looking for his birth its

Births Mar 1894
Gilman    Arthur Ivan        Hoxne

then on the 1901 census its,
1901 CENSUS
Arthur Jean Gilman
Age:   7
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1894
Relation:   Son
Father's Name:   Arthur Gilman
Mother's Name:   Florence Eliza Gilman
Gender:   Male
Where born:   Hoxne, Suffolk, England
and the 1911 its  just Arthur

GILMAN, ARTHUR IVAN
Private
Service No:
377029
Date of Death:
21/03/1918
Age:
24
Regiment/Service:
Manchester Regiment

16th Bn.
Panel Reference
Panel 64 to 67.
Memorial
POZIERES MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of Arthur Gilman, of 49, Low St., Hoxne, Diss, Norfolk; husband of Lily Gilman, of Bilbrough, York.

mack

arthur wasnt a conscript,he enlisted on 6th may 1915 in the kings own yorkshire light infantry,went to france 18-9-1915.
married lily clark at the end of 1917
cant help with a date when he joined the manchesters.

mack ;D

Graham

Hi

Many thanks for that information, new doors have opened so its onwards and upwards.

If anyone is interested in Arthur's obituary once I have finished it I would be happy to forward it on.

With regards,

Graham

Tim Bell

Graham,

I'm sure members will appreciate seeing your finished work.

I've just noticed Arthur's Service Number 377029 is similar to Lewis Foulkes 377293, who was my grandad's cousin.  Lewis' Silver War Badge roll shows he enlisted on 3/6/1916.  Following sequential numbering, this may suggest Arthur Gilman was transferred from the KOYLI in April / May 1916.

From http://www.themanchesters.org/re-numbering.htm you will see Arthur's number will have been from the 10th Battalion - Lewis Foulkes was in 2nd / 10th Bttn.

It was common place for men to move between Battalions ie 10th to 16th.  Lewis Foulkes' brother's (Frederick) number was amongst the 8th group and he served with the 22nd.

Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
[url="http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/"]http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/[/url]

harribobs

Tim, the renumbering started late in 1916 and went officially into action in March 1917
"It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

Tim Bell

#6
Chris,

Once again, I'm dazed and confused then. No longer...

Lewis Foulkes joined in June 1916, but his number was issued in Dec. 16????  Did he receive another number first?  He must have had another number first and I can see Ivan Gillman was 5035 originally before being re-numbered 377029

I may still take up crochet as an easy option....

Tim
edited
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
[url="http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/"]http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/[/url]

Graham

Crochet sounds a good idea.

I can understand the KOYLI service number changing to the Manchester's 377029 but where does the number 5035 figure? can anyone help.

Also tonyrod mentions medical records, are these available on line?

Bemused of Hoxne


tonyrod

HI Graham,  its to check if he was wounded and received the SWB.  its unlikely he would have been home to get married in DEC 1917 to
lily Clark if he was not,  it is possible the 5035 number was issued before the 377029  but missed in the paper work,
but I don't like guessing and with out his records he's like millions of other's we are left with questions, sorry I can not help you any more ,

                                                                                                                                                                   tony
 

mack

hiya graham
5035 would have been his original 10th manchesters number before he was renumbered with his six digit number,usually,when a four digit number as high as this appears on a medal card,it means the man went to france/flanders just before the renumbering took place,the renumbering system is a pain in the arse,you cant determine when a man transferred between regiments or battalions by his service number unless you have his records.

i keep telling people that you cant determine when a soldier transferred to another unit by his service number,but they dont listen,only his records can do that.

good hunting graham.

mack ;D

mack

Quote from: tonyrod on September 13, 2013, 02:58:11 PM
HI Graham,  its to check if he was wounded and received the SWB.  its unlikely he would have been home to get married in DEC 1917 to
lily Clark if he was not,  it is possible the 5035 number was issued before the 377029  but missed in the paper work,
but I don't like guessing and with out his records he's like millions of other's we are left with questions, sorry I can not help you any more ,

                                                                                                                                                                   tony
 
tony.
SWB are only issued to men who have been discharged from the armed forces,not to sick/wounded men who will be sent back

mack ;D

tonyrod

#11
HI MACK,  I am aware of that forgot to say wounded and discharged,  ;D


StephenG

Arthur Ivan Gilman was my great uncle, Jane Parker