"A Last Stand". The 2nd Manchesters at Beaumont Hamel 18.11.16.

[PhilipG]

Timberman,

Your "thread" on this site of 30th January refers.  Thanks and take care. Philip.

[mack]

hiya philip
it seems a good bet from andys article that your guess about bayliss was correct

mack

[timberman]

From the MEN 29th Nov 1916

Listing


2/Lt  Bayliss as wounded

SDGW
Name:   Reginald Blencowe Bayliss
Death Date:   18 Nov 1916
Rank:   2/Lieutenant
Regiment:   Manchester Regiment
Battalion:   2nd Battalion
Type of Casualty:   Died of wounds


and
2/Lt  Babbage
Captain (Lt) Rayner

as being two of the seven missing.

click on the pictures to make them bigger.

Timberman

[PhilipG]

Timberman,

Thanks once again for your interest, effort and help in this sad affair. Philip.

[timberman]

Sadly although we have a lot of information
I don't think we will ever know who the officer
with the 40 OR in the trench was.

Just going by the information available,
I think it was 2nd LT J C Babbage.

In Serre Trench there were 60 wounded cases
that could not be evacuated day or night and
some had been there for 6 days.
As 2/Lt Bayliss had died of wounds it is
possible he was one of the wounded in Serre
Trench but still died on the 18/11/1916.

Lt Davidson was commanding "D" coy
and was seen advancing on and all
contact was lost and he was later taken prisoner.

"A" coy only had 20 men it total and were to act
in support of "D" coy.
So if it was "C" coy that got trapped
it would more than likely 2nd LT J C Babbage
that would be in command.

Ref.

The Manchester Regiment edited by Wolmer Whyte
Attack report in the war diaries.
History of the Manchester's

Just a view, shame they didn't put a bit more info in the diaries.

Timberman

[mack]

as well as Davidson,capt Erskine and 2/Lts griffin,henderson,harley and harbron were also captured,the first to be repatriated was harbron on 29th November 1918,henderson and Harley followed on 17th December,davidson and griffin on 1st January and captain Erskine on 5th January.

neil.
we may or may not find who the officer was,but this thread is aiding you in your 2nd battalion history,there is one thing that makes me curious,the patrol who found them would have known the officer,wonder why he wasn't mentioned in any report

mack.
keep digging mate,summat might turn up

[timberman]

Cheers Mack

Enjoying all these 2nd Bn threads
Only problem they keep adding to my
data base for the 2nd

Timberman

[mack]

during the battlefield clearance by V corps,several men were found and buried by them,41359 William birch[D.coy]90 cowlishaw lane,shaw was found and buried on 10th july 1917,hes buried in munich trench cemetery,41476 William jenkinson[A.coy]64 Charles st hyde,was buried in serre rd No1 and 569 Nathaniel logan,9 back rowbottom st,oldham,buried in ten trees alley cemetery.

these men had a proper burial but I have no info wether it was by V corps
2508 Thomas aspinall,munich trench,ashton rd,failsworth
33805 james blakeway,munich trench,6 piercy st lower broughton
2393 William burgess,serres rd No1
34662 ernest Jeffery,serres rd No1,67 henry st withington
2857 john Patrick murphy,serres rd No1,14 Naylor st,oldham rd
16629 William rock,munich trench
9610 james sherriff,munich trench,vale saw mills,bailliborough,cavan
41565 joseph webb,munich trench,128 brainard st liverpool
41576 james ralph wood,serres rd No2,46 Trafalgar st ashton

one man who died on the 18th was 15366 greaves wood,he died of wounds at the CCS at puchevillers,doubtful wether he was involved in the actions on 18th,the fact that these men were buried in four different cemeteries suggests that they were fairly scattered across the area,the other 39 men have no known grave.

mack
ps.a map of the area and the location of these cemeteries marked on it could be useful

[timberman]

Munich trench cemetery Red star
Ten trees alley cemetery Blue star
Serre rd No1  Yellow star

Timberman

I have got a trench Map of the area.

Click on image to make it bigger.

[timberman]

Map showing the position of the trenches

[timberman]

Picture of 2nd LT J C Babbage
found on the GWF

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=192873

[PhilipG]

Just a few Notes:-

l)  I agree with Mack that it is curious that neither the patrol's report nor that of the survivor mentioned the officer's name.

2) To Timberman, I say thanks for the superb trench map of the Redan Ridge which has enabled me to "tie in" the account of the battle with trench locations.   Thanks, too, for the map of the area in which you have marked the position of the CWGC cemeteries.   This particular area is where I spent much time "in the footsteps of the 2nd Mcrs."   As you will know, the lettter "A" marks roughly the location of the field next to Serre Road No. 2 cemetery, where in January 1917 Wilfred Owen spent hours in a German dug-out in No Man's land, standing in some 2 feet of water.   To the rear of Serre Road No.2 cemetery is the position where on the 26th January 1917 a 2nd Mcrs' soldier froze to death- Mack discovering for me the unfortunate man's name.

3)  As 1916 drew to a close, the 2nd Mcrs. left the field of battle with just 6 officers and 150 men on the battalion's strength.  In just a few weeks' time Owen would be on his way to join the battalion as a reinforcement. PhilipG.

[mack]

theres a possibility that quite a few of the missing men are buried in serres road No1 cemetery.

this is the layout for plot III.row E.

grave
1 unknown
2 "
3 "
4 "
5 "
6 "
7 "
8 "
9 "
10+11 two men from other regts
12 unknown
13 "
14 "
15 2393 william burgess.2nd manchesters
16 unknown
17 unknown 2nd manchester
18 richardson YLI
19 41476 william jenkinson 2nd manchesters
20+21 two men from other regts
22 unknown 2nd manchesters

mack

[mack]

plot III.row F.

grave.
16 34662 ernest jeffery.2nd manchesters
17 pte t.armstrong border regt
18 unknown
19 "
20 2857 john,patrick murphy.2nd manchesters
21 unknown
22 "
23 "
24 "
25 "
26 "
27 "
28 "
29 "
30 "

all these men were found in map reference 57d.k.36.d.9.8

mack

[mack]

neil/Philip.
hope this clears it up about the officer.

sgt 877 john,alfred redwood[A.coy] of 37 Granville st,greenheys,said that when he last saw 2/Lt babbage,he was very badly wounded and told sgt redwood that he was going to try and get back,that was the last time he saw him.
pte 41432 Arnold Gibson[C.coy] of 65 wellington st,bradford Manchester,heard that he had been killed.

L/Cpl 2613 harry holt[C.coy] of 3 Sutherland st miles platting,stated that he heard he was killed in a german trench.

pte 2285 james smith[B.coy].36 Dundee st Oldham said that he heard 2/Lt babbage had been killed

regarding Lt[capt]rayner,OC B.coy,2/Lt Henderson said he was killed by a shell on 18th November.

it looks like your officer was bayliss

all the above soldiers mentioned,were taken prisoner on 18th November

mack