Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Men

[Glen4059]

This is the list that I have so far of those named on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Memorial at Victoria Station. Research is ongoing and the link will be updated as necessary.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwqi3uL-Buy2VmRUWkU0bXVlNUE/edit?usp=sharing

Notes on colour coding of database entries
Name Column
Green – Person Identified  and details entered
Bright Green – No further research required (I have name, rank, No, Work grade and location, date fell, commemoration details and age) This does not mean I will not record any further information, just that I have what I want for the current project.
White – un-researched as yet
Pink – No details yet found

No. Column
Grey Fill - This person has been researched on the NRM database and I need to compare their research with mine
Yellow text – Most likely – but requires further research
Other columns
Yellow text – Caution – this data may be incorrect, example is F Allsopp. I have a record of a F. Allsopp who worked at Newton Heath, joining the 7th Manchesters. My research indicates that this person returned home, so I am still looking for a F. Allsopp (who may be from a different Regiment)
Red text – Danger – this data is almost certainly incorrect – Example is J.A. Johnson. The St Paul’s list shows his grade as Porter, but the 1916 Roll of Honour lists a J. Johnson who was a Chair Wheeler at Horwich, so unlikely to be the same person (But I still need to check it out)

Where a Battalion No. appears in the Regiment column (e.g. 5th Manchester) this is the Battalion they first joined on enlistment, as reported to the Railway. I am in the process of checking these against the CWGC/SDGW details and separating them off into the “Batt/Unit/Ship” Column

There are a few names at the bottom of the list who originally joined the Manchester Regiment, but lost their lives serving with different regiments.
My version of the database has a lot more columns but I have only included here the ones that I consider will be relevant to others to reduce the amount of scrolling required to read it.

As with any research for this period, errors may have crept in, due to available data so the list is open to discussion/ammendment.

Glen

[Tim Bell]

Glen,
Hubert Dawson Obit. on Page 21 of Thomas Cartman's docs.  Photo on Page 1.  http://ripassetseu.s3.amazonaws.com/www.bgsalumni.com/_files/documents/jan_14/wmp__1389954608_Cartman_Scrapbook_Part_1.pdf  I couldn't find him on your list, but may have been lost in excel.

Tim

[Wendi]

Or simply not on the Memorial.

This is the list that I have so far of those named on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Memorial at Victoria Station.

[Glen4059]

Glen,
Hubert Dawson Obit. on Page 21 of Thomas Cartman's docs.  Photo on Page 1.  http://ripassetseu.s3.amazonaws.com/www.bgsalumni.com/_files/documents/jan_14/wmp__1389954608_Cartman_Scrapbook_Part_1.pdf  I couldn't find him on your list, but may have been lost in excel.

Tim

Fantastic! - Thanks

The link I posted only lists those that I have identified as Manchester Rgt. H.Dawson is on my main list as a Clerk - but I had no other details before seeing this post. I will add him over the weekend when I have done a bit more digging.

One difficulty I have encountered is that the railways were a reserved occupation. I know more fell than are on the lists, but have to assume that some were refused permission to enlist, so resigned from their job in order to do so. This meant they were not employed by the railways so their names would not appear on the memorials

[mack]

hiya glen
one of your men,t.conlan,there was pte 2965 tim conlon[spelt with an O]he was in A.coy,1st manchesters,killed on 14-3-15,lived at 18 little hannah st,salford,married elizabeth nelson in salford 1905
sorry but i cant find a railway connection,there was a mention in the M.E.N about him on 12-4-15

mack

[george.theshed197]

Glen,
WW2 I was working with the Min. of Fuel and Power as a former member of C & W as a Tele-printer Mech/Op, again Reserved Occ. BUT we only had to submit a request to our Head Office, (pre-war they had been  (Shell and Anglo) and permission to join up was usually granted (certainly was in my own case) - maybe the same or similar situation applied WW1 ??

George.

PS. Before any of the rest of you start chipping - May be they had preferred me to be else-where.

[mack]

hiya glen
this could be your Lt h.jones

2/Lt harold jones
RDC
1 orange hill rd,heaton park
clerk in the railway engineers dept
died in king edwards hospital,cardiff on 26-12-17
aged 42
wife agnes,hattersfield jones

mack

[Glen4059]

Thanks for the suggestions above - I will look further into them when I can.

When replying to the post from Tim Bell this morning I was a bit short of time, but can now explain how useful this information is
The Memorial lists H. Dawson as Pte. and the St. Paul's list shows him as a private and a clerk.

CWGC lists 91 H.Dawson's (50 of which are Private)

There are no service records and it is only when I look at the 1911 census, I find Railway Clerk shown as occupation.

So one snippet of info has saved me a fruitless search of the 50 Privates - before I extend the search to the NCO's and above.

Further checking and I find he is listed in the LYR Roll of Honour from 1915, which lists all staff who had joined the colours up to that date and confirms Tim's information

[Glen4059]

Glen,
WW2 I was working with the Min. of Fuel and Power as a former member of C & W as a Tele-printer Mech/Op, again Reserved Occ. BUT we only had to submit a request to our Head Office, (pre-war they had been  (Shell and Anglo) and permission to join up was usually granted (certainly was in my own case) - maybe the same or similar situation applied WW1 ??

George.

PS. Before any of the rest of you start chipping - May be they had preferred me to be else-where.

The basic rule was that staff could apply to join the services, but as early as September 1914, a War Office instruction was sent out to recruiting officers and agencies " Where candidates for enlistment are men employed by railway companies or by armament or food producing companies, they should not be accepted by the recruiting officers unless they bring a certificate from the company concerned that their services can be spared"

The message to staff from the railway companies was "Wherever it is possible to do so, without impairing the efficiency of the working of the railway, permission to enlist will be given upon application being made to the Head of Department"

Looking through all my lists it is noticeable that there are very few Drivers or fireman listed, as these would invariably be refused.

The L&Y roll of honour book from 1916 (see a sample page in my post above) does highlight those who asked, were refused, but decided to enlist anyway. I have looked at the service records of some of these and found a wide list of declared occupations!

A good example is from Albert Andrews book - A Manchester Pal on the Somme - p28 has a photograph of Robert Lamb Buckley, who worked for the Great Northern Railway in Manchester and died 1st June 1916. He does not appear on any of my lists.

His attestation papers survive, but he declares his trade a Clerk with no mention of the railway.

[Glen4059]

I have updated my master list with the info so far received, with the exception of Pte. Conlan/Conlon that I need to look at further.

I seems that the Google drive checks your Cache 1st, so you may not see the changes if you have already loked at the file, to get the latest version there is a download link to the top left.

Glen

[roytoner]

hi Glen, I cant open your link for some reason. I have some info on a  Lancs&Yorks Railway worker, not sure if you've got him - James William Butterworth (52147) Leicestershire Regiment, ex-Lancs Fusiliers

[Glen4059]

hi Glen, I cant open your link for some reason. I have some info on a  Lancs&Yorks Railway worker, not sure if you've got him - James William Butterworth (52147) Leicestershire Regiment, ex-Lancs Fusiliers

Thanks for the info, the only details I have was that he was a "Ganger" on the railway - in today's terms that would be a track worker. I don't suppose you know where he worked?

I will check the link tomorrow (1am is a bit late!)

Glen

[roytoner]

sorry, I dont know where he worked but he lived in Royton. I have him down as a 'plate layer' - same thing I suppose. Are you researching all the men or just those that were in the Manchester Regiment? Will keep my eye open for anymore I see

http://www.roytonrollofhonour.com/Burns_Butterworth.html#butterworth_james_william

[Glen4059]

Are you researching all the men or just those that were in the Manchester Regiment?

My main research is into all the men named on the L&Y memorial at Manchester Victoria, however during the course of this I am finding detail of other railwaymen that are being added to a separate database for future research, so if you come across any railway staff at all I would be interested in the details/

[mack]

hiya glen.
do you have 1858 george jacques,42 ash st,oldham rd aged 18,he worked at thorpe rd,dont know what or where thorpe rd was.

mack