Bugle Band and 17th Battalion C Company 10 Platoon

[wendyg]

I have been researching my great uncle's platoon - C Company 10 platoon in an attempt to find out whether he joined up with a 'pal' or 'pals'.  In the platoon are 8 members of the Bugle Band, who I assume acted as stretcher bearers when in action.

Of these 8, 2 were killed in action: L/Cpl Alfred Hooley (8150) 1 July 1916 and Drummer James Henry Nixon (8253)  8 May 1918,   2 were discharged Drummer Rowland Collins Crowder (8490) 8/4/18 and Drummer John Windows (8334) 27/718.
The others from the platoon were Drummer Edgar Norrisbottom (8259), Drummer William Leonard Crowder (8491) brother of Rowland, Drummer William McKinley (8146) and Drummer Herbert Mattock (8743).  The 2 Crowder brothers and William McKinley were residents at The Manchester Boys Refuge, 61 Ducie St in 1911 along with 3 others in the same platoon but not in the band- Pte Robert Garlick (8582), Pte William Hole (8636) and Pte William Stocks (9154)

I have 3 questions!

1 Is it unusual to have 8 members of the bugle band ( being stretcher bearers in action) in one platoon?

2. How were members of the Bugle Band selected and was prior ' musical ability' was required?

3 if a member of the Bugle Band was killed was he 'replaced' by a  bugler/drummer from reserves?

Wendyg

[Tim Bell]

Wendy,

I can't help answer your specific questions, but I have a bit more info. on other members of the Battalion Bugle Band that may help build the picture.  Most data collated with help from the Forum.

Private Albert Hawksworth 9148

Albert Hawksworth’s MIC solely identifies the Award of only the 1915 Star. He transferred to the Cheshire Regiment and entered France on 9th November; the day after the 17th Manchesters, where he had been a member of the Bugle Band and III Platoon.  He was discharged on 3rd October 1917, without the apparent receipt of a Silver War Badge.  Born in 1882 Albert had been a clerk residing in Jobling Street in Bradford, Manchester.  He died in 1947 when he had been living at Droylsden Road, Audenshaw.

Private Ernest Pollitt 9077

Ernest Pollitt was a drummer in the 17th Bttn. Bugle Band, alongside 2nd Lt. Mansergh (his III Pln. OC) and Pt. Albert Hawksworth.  His MIC shows he entered France on the same day as the rest of III Platoon.  He subsequently transferred to 3/3 London Regiment.  Ernest’s date of discharge is not known.

Tim

[mack]

Wendy,

I can't help answer your specific questions, but I have a bit more info. on other members of the Battalion Bugle Band that may help build the picture.  Most data collated with help from the Forum.

Private Albert Hawksworth 9148

Albert Hawksworth’s MIC solely identifies the Award of only the 1915 Star. He transferred to the Cheshire Regiment and entered France on 9th November; the day after the 17th Manchesters, where he had been a member of the Bugle Band and III Platoon.  He was discharged on 3rd October 1917, without the apparent receipt of a Silver War Badge.  Born in 1882 Albert had been a clerk residing in Jobling Street in Bradford, Manchester.  He died in 1947 when he had been living at Droylsden Road, Audenshaw.

Private Ernest Pollitt 9077

Ernest Pollitt was a drummer in the 17th Bttn. Bugle Band, alongside 2nd Lt. Mansergh (his III Pln. OC) and Pt. Albert Hawksworth.  His MIC shows he entered France on the same day as the rest of III Platoon.  He subsequently transferred to 3/3 London Regiment.  Ernest’s date of discharge is not known.

Tim

hawksworth was awarded all three medals,he has two MICs.

mack

[mack]

hawksworth was discharged from the 57th training res batt on 3-10-17,SWB No133132,enlisted 2-1-15

mack

[Robert Bonner]

Wendi.
Going back to your original question. I note from the photo of the band in the Book of Honour that there were 51 members in the original Bugle Band of the 17th Bn. The majority of these would have been pre-war members of the bands of the Boy Scouts, Church Lads Brigade, the Boys Brigade and similar organisations. Their role in the battalion was very important to help with marching and also playing the various bugle calls  to announce parades and lights out etc.  Later on in the war most battalions had proper military bands with most of their instruments provided by supportive local authories.

Although they were drummers and buglers this was just a part-time occupation and they were all members of rifle platoons in various companies, carrying our their normal training with everybody else. 

[Tim Bell]

Mack,
Well spotted & thanks. The discharge date is the same on both MICs + SWB List confirming these are all Albert Hawksworth.
T

[PhilipG]

wendyg,

Your questions 2 & 3.

If a replacement were to be required, it would be usual when a parade "fell in" for the NCO (or whoever) to call out, "Step forward any man who can blow a bugle".  Thus, in this manner would potential bandsmen come forward for interview.

My father described to me how he was transferred from the Lancs. Fus. to the Royal Engineers when he was in Egypt in 1915.  He was on parade when the CSM called out "Step forward any man who can do shorthand/typing."   My father was just such a person.  He took one pace forward, was tested, transferred to the Royal Engineers, posted to the EEF HQ in Cairo and eventually went with Allenby in the EEF's advance to Jerusalem.

He told me that he was reluctant at first to step forward, as some NCO's  enticed applicants to come forward for what seemed a congenial job, only to discover that the task was peeling vast quantities of potatoes or similar.  Regards. PhilipG.

[wendyg]

Thank you all for your contributions, most helpful. I had just finished reading ''wounded - from Battlefield to Blighty 1914-1918' by Emily Mayhew published recently. In the book she covers all aspects of medical matters and I was particularly taken by the work of stretcher bearers.  Incidentally she includes a narrative of the experiences of Scout Sergeant James Albert  'Bert'  Payne (6310) of the 16th Battalion from being wounded  to his eventful return to England.  Part of the story can be read in Michael Stedman's  'Pals'  p 107 -108.

Wendyg

[Tim Bell]

Wendy,

The recording of Bert Payne's interview with Lyn Smith is here http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80009677  I think this is the main source of the published notes.

Albert Hurst's interview with Peter Hart also covered evacuation and treatment - or lack of it - of wounds. http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80011329

It would be great to read the transcripts of these interviews, as they cover so much ground and listening for the 2nd / 3rd time always picks up new nuances.  I've only done bit's and pieces from Albert's. 

If transcripts are not covered by copyright, I'd be happy to post Arthur Bell's interview with Martin Middlebrook transcribed by one of his gt gdaughters (good on her).  Just let me know how if this is ok.

T