III Platoon 17th Battalion

[Tim Bell]

As discussed with Mack, I'm seeking information on the Roll from this particular Platoon.  We know they survived, but not much more.  I've tried Geoff's search engine, all the lists on the host sites, Service Records, Pension Records and name searches on the Newspaper Archive.  Most data  comes from MICs.  If forum members have any other records to add, I would appreciate their help.  Many other records of men being transferred out of the Battalion indicate earlier wounding before the transfer.  As such, I suspect many of these men were wounded in 1916, but I have no evidence to show this.


Original Rank      Name      Number      Comments
CSM (1)             John H Green      9070      Promoted A/WO1.  Discharged Fit 4/2/1919
CQMS      Henry Waddington      9348      Commissioned 11/8/1916
Pln. Sergeant (1)      Frank Ewart Chandler MC      Transferred Royal Engineers. France 20/9/15.  Commissioned Lt. 14/5/1916. Wounded 6/1916 & 3/1918
Lance Sergeant      H. Dixon      9054      No MIC
Corporal       Percy H. Kay*      8693      Discharged Fit 27/2/1919
Lance Corporal      Frank Handley   8155      Commissioned Cheshire Regt. Att. MGC
Lance Corporal      H. F. Barton   9051      No MIC
Lance Corporal      Samuel Lucas*   9094      Also 13th & 9th BttnDischarged Fit 3/4/1919.
Private      Joseph Hastings McCaig   8728      May be 8789. Discharged. Not efficient
Private      T. Gray             10772      No MIC
Private      G. N. Moss              8227      No MIC
Private      Thomas Lavin      9162      Transferred to Kings Liverpool Regt.
Private      George H. Robinson   8822      Transferred to Army Service Corps.  No Star.
Private      Tom Hawkins      8595      Changed No. Wounded? Discharged Fit 5/4/1917
Private      John Bardsley      8388      Transferred to 16th Bttn. Nov 1918. Discharged Fit 25/2/1919.  Low pension. No Wounds
Private      Arthur Jones      8190      Wounded and captured 10/7/1916. Discharged Fit 13/4/1919
Private      John Bell              8378      Transferred to Middx. Regt.
Private      Albert Hawksworth   9148      Transferred to Training Reserve Bttn.+ Cheshire Regt. Disch. 3/10/1917.
Private      Courtenay G. Jones   9027      Discharged Fit 14/4/1919.
Private Drummer      Robert Barrett   9075      Transferred to Royal Field Artillery. Star.
Private      Frederick Forsyth      8547      Transferred to Lincs. Regt. No Star
Private      Herbert White      8942      Transferred to Labour Corps
Private      Arthur Collier      8473      No Star. France 22/7/1916.  Wounded 1917 & 8/1918
Private      Thomas C. Roscoe   8823      Also 13th BttnDischarged Fit 26/5/1919.
Private Drummer      C. Pollitt      8473      Transferred to 3/3 London Regt.
Private      John Carlin              8469      Hospitilised bronchitis 12/1918. Discharged Fit
Private      P. Murch              8726      Transferred to Army Cycling Corps + RSF.  Sergeant Demob. 3/5/19.
Private      Thomas Brown      9046      Commissioned 17th Bttn. 25/9/1917
Private      Robert Schofield      8284      Also 13th & 9th Bttn Discharged Fit 21/3/1919
Private      George Lancaster*   9163      Also 13th & 9th BttnWounded. Reserve z 21/3/1919
* Not present in Photo
Updates shown in red.  Thanks to everyone who has helped build the records.

I tried to attach a spreadsheet showing all of the men, but a photo will need to suffice for now.

Thanks in anticipation.

Tim

[mack]

8190 arthur jones,10 cottenham st,chorlton on medlock
occupation,clerk
enlisted 3-9-14
aged 19
wounded in right leg and taken prisoner on 10th july 1916 at trones wood,POW at dulmen camp
repatriated 4-12-18.

L/sgt 8469 john carlin
enlisted 3-9-14
aged 33
occupation,warehouseman
3 west clowes st,eccles
promoted to L/sgt on 1-10-15
admitted to northumberland war hospital on 3-12-1918 with acute bronchitis.
on 11th april 1922,he along with his wife frances and two daughters frances+ethel,boarded the SS moreton bay and sailed for a new life in NSW australia

mack

[Tim Bell]

Thanks Mack,
Arthur Jones is the first member of the Platoon I have recorded as captured at Trones Wood; while two men are recorded POW at Montauban.  I find this strange in view of the comparable success on 1st rather than 9/10th July.  We also know that part of A Company was left behind in the wood when the Battalion withdrew in the afternoon of 9th July.  This may mean that III Platoon's allocated defensive position in the wood allowed them to stay in touch enabling them to receive orders to retire.

7 men lost their lives at Montauban, compared with 5 at Trones Wood.  This possibly counters my thoughts of success.

John Carlin is an example of a man who stayed with the Regiment and had no recorded wounds during the war.  In view of the total losses, I think the reality is that men were wounded and returned, but no records remain to show this, but I will keep looking...

Tim

[tonyrod]

hi TIM,  This is the record I found for J H Green, from pension records  they had only two listed, then I found some more , its not our CSM
its   PTE John Henry Green 290928 York Royal Hussars,

[tonyrod]

Medal card of Green, John H. Corps: Manchester Regiment 17th Battalion. Regiment No: 9070. Rank: ...
...Green, John H. Corps Regiment No Rank Manchester Regiment 17th Battalion 9070 Company Serjeant Major. Manchester Regiment 17th Battalion 9070 Acting Warrant Officer Class 1. ...

[Tim Bell]

Well done Tony,

The abbreviation to Manch stopped me finding him I think...

It's great to find out info. on the CSM.  Lt. McCardle's diary said A Company CSM was killed at Montauban.  CSM Green must have been posted to another Company, or promoted to WO1 before the July offensive.  Then again Geoff's search engine shows no 17th Bttn. CSM or CQMS being killed at Montauban and the CSM may have been John Green who possibly recovered without Lt. M knowing.  

It would be good to work out who the CSM was on 1st July. Joseph McMenemy had taken John Green's place as CSM before Guillemont (where he died), having been promoted to CQMS after Montauban.  CSM Ham was with A Company at Flers.

Many thanks

Tim

[tonyrod]

I have used all the combinations with   PTE, G. N. Moss   and with just the number 8227 nothing this is the only one I can find

Medal card of Moss, George N. Corps:
Manchester Regiment Depot Manchester Regiment. Regiment No: 303539. ...
its possible this is the same man who went over after the numbers changed

[Tim Bell]

Tony,

Another good find.

I think George N. Moss is our man.  Enlisted 9/12/15.  Discharged 20/2/19.  He received no 1914/15 Star and there is no date for overseas service on his MIC.  It's safe to assume he transferred to the Depot before November 1915 when the 17th left for France and possibly soon after the March Roll was produced.  He must have been re-numbered in the 11th-14th Battalions and his original 17th number wasn't noted.

Does this make sense?

What does list H/2451/1 mean? And 392/XVI/KR?

Thanks for following these up.  The forum is better every day!

Tim

[tonyrod]

it does to me, but I am just the searcher ,  
update, Tim, I see you have amended PTE  George N. Moss,   he must have gone over or he would have had no medal card no date on as he went over late 1916 or after new number was issued   most where only dated for the 1914 star or the 1914-15 star in 1916 no need in dating them, he was awarded the pair,  H/2451/1  his the medal roll and 392/XVI/KR? is the regulation for his discharge.
you will need a lot more info to be 100% sure its the same man.
the 17th battalion deployed to France on the 8th November 1915
on his medal card he only enlisted on the 9/12/15

[Tim Bell]

Tony,

Thanks for following this up.  As George Moss enlisted in December 1915, he couldn't have been in the Heaton Park Roll in March 1915 - unless he left and came back.  In future I'll avoid treating assumptions as fact.  My list has been corrected.

Is it fair to say that receipt of BWM and Victory medals confirms overseas service?

Tim

[tonyrod]

in short YES,     the 3rd battalion  lost lads in Cleethorpes  ww1 due to bombing,  to this day they never received medals yet they died in war by the enemy. 3rd battalion  remained on the Lincolnshire coast in Humber Garrison until the end of the War. ,

[mack]

Tony,

Thanks for following this up.  As George Moss enlisted in December 1915, he couldn't have been in the Heaton Park Roll in March 1915 - unless he left and came back.  In future I'll avoid treating assumptions as fact.  My list has been corrected.

Is it fair to say that receipt of BWM and Victory medals confirms overseas service?

Tim.
no man was entitled to a 1914 star,1915 star,war medal or victory medal unless they had served overseas

mack

[mack]

pte 9148 albert hawksworth[not hawkswood]served throughout the war,awarded the 1915 star and war+victory medals
he lived at 10 jobling st,bradford manchester and worked as a clerk,born 1882 in manchester,died 19th december 1947
residence in 1947 was 153 droylsden rd,audenshaw

pte 9027 courteney,george jones.
discharged to classZ army reserve 14-4-1919
after the war,he lived at 196 errwood rd,levenshulme
occupation.electrical engineer.
died 1st june 1960 at withington hospital
resided at the time at 31 hambleton drive,manchester

mack

[Tim Bell]

Thanks Mack,

9148 Albert Hawksworth has 2 MICs.  One as Hawksworth showing the Star and Service in the Cheshire Rgt.  The 2nd says (incorrectly) Hawkesworth showing BWM + VM 57 -Y R Bttn.  Number TR4-3608.  What does that mean  - TR??  Also does the transfer to the Cheshires suggest Albert was probably wounded and transferred after recovery? Any ideas?

Tim

[Tim Bell]

Mack,

Thanks for the detail on Courtenay Jones. 

He is one of our men that stayed with Manchesters throughout the War.  He was either very fortunate (prob. not the right word), or wounded and recovered with no record of such.  I would guess the second option, but will not update my list.

If a man had survived intact and transferred to 13th Battalion with the remains of the 17th Bttn. in May 1918 would they have been issued a new number for 13th?  Would their MIC show this?

Tim