21st Manchester Company B 5th Platoon - T.E. Downs

[RaptorBob]

Hi All,

First off - what an amazing forum this is, I am amazed by the energy from everyone to keep the past so alive and real in today's hearts and minds!

I have recently started on an expedtion with my father to track down the details of his grandfather, who we know as Thomas Edwin Downs.  We believe he joined the Manchester regimement, and that he is the "T E Downs" mentioned in the 21st Roll, along with the 21st SNCO's list.

What we "think we know"

- He joined at a relatively older age - he must have been in his very late 20's early 30's.
- He was possibly in the 21st - 6th City - B Company - 5th Platoon, as Platoon Sergeant, ID: 18855.
- It it possible he signed up with his brother (1 / 2 years older) - Arthur Henry Downs.  Who it seems appears in the same platoon as Corporal A H Downs ID # 19588.
- We believe he was injured sometime in late 1916 / 1917 and went back to the UK.
- We understand he joined the Royal Flying Corps in some role after recuperating back in Blackpool.

We see there was also a T Downs in the Manchesters (20th I believe, around the same time), but we can't confirm who is who.  We do have a newspaper cutting referring to Thomas Downs as being injured, and recuperating in 1917 in Blackpool (because his wife was famous - see below).  I know for sure that Thomas Edwin Downs was later known as "Chic Carew", and was a stage Pierot after the war, his wife (both before and after the war), was a famous Soubriete (singer) - Nellie Gallafent. It is news articles relating to Nellie that call out her husband Thomas's background.

We have also seen that T. E. Downs medals were at some point up for auction in late 2012, including a medal while he was in the Kings Lancashire military hospital.  Any information, or the ability for us to track down his medals and bring them home would be greatly appreciated!

Any help that anyone can give to firm up any information we have (right or wrong) is very greatly appreciated!

We would really like to confirm if the "T E" is truly "Thomas Edwin" as we believe it is.

Many thanks,

Rob
Great-Grandson.

P.S  I am also taking my father to visit to the Somme in the next few weeks.  We will be staying in Martinpuich which I belive is right where the 21st spent a large part of their operation in 1916/1917.  Any information people have on the 21st operational area at that time would also be appreciated.  We have purchased a copy of Holts Somme guide which has some references to the Manchesters in there.

[Wendi]

Hi Bob, and a Warm Welcome to our Forum 

There is a Medal Index Card for a Thomas E Downs who seems to match some of the things you "think you know"

Sjt. T E Downs Regimental Number 2/18855 later
R.F.C Regimental Number 302801

Was awarded the 15 Star on the Rolls of The Royal Flying Corps 2C Page 127
Awarded the Victory and British Medal on the Rolls of The RAF 101 B17 Page 343

He entered France on 11th November 1915

Wendi 

[tonyrod]

hi Bob, Welcome to the forum,     SGT 18855  T.E. Downs medals where listed  on this site  OCT 28/2012  http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=360.1080

http://www.wellingtonauctions.com/AuctionListing.htm

Lot 409
Sergeant T.E. Downs, Manchester Regiment. 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal all named to 18855 Sergeant T.E. Downs, Manchester Regiment. Small silver gilt medal, the reverse 'For Good Service Sgt T.E. Downs' the obverse 'K.L.M.C.H. 1917' 'Kings Lancashire Medical Convalescent Hospital 1917' With copy papers, later served Royal Flying Corps. (4) Good very fine £ 125-150.

possible family

Thomas Edwin Downs
Birth Date:   16 Nov 1883
Date of Registration:   Apr-May-Jun 1971
Age at Death:   87
Registration district:   Fylde
Inferred County:   Lancashire

Marriages Jun 1904
Downs    Thomas Edwin        Chorlton    8c   1569     
Gallafent    Eleanor Ada        Chorlton    8c   1569
   
1901 census looks like 74 derby st salford
Arthur Downs   39   butcher own shop
Mary Downs   38
Arthur H Downs   19   butcher
Thomas E Downs   17    butcher
Kate Taylor   23
Eleanor Barrett   32


1911 census  
Thomas Edwin Downs
Age in 1911:   27
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1884
Relation to Head:   Head
Gender:   Male
Birth Place:   Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil parish:   North Manchester
County/Island:   Lancashire
Street Address:   247 Ashton New Rd Beswick Manchester
Marital Status:   Married
Occupation:   Butcher
Registration district:   Prestwich

Thomas Edwin Downs 27
Eleanor Ada Downs    28
Arthur Downs     6
Norman Downs     3

[RaptorBob]

Hi - thanks so much for confirming this. Yes - that's absolutely the family, we have located the same records!  Eleanor is Nellie Gallafent.

From looking at the platoon pictures, would it be normal practice for the platoon sergeant to sit to the platoon commander's right?  If so - that would make him 2nd row, 6th from the left, 21st  B Coy, Platoon 5.  I haven't been able as yet to locate him on the SNCO picture.

I am also interested in finding out if the Corporal A.H. Downs (19588) also in B Company/Plt 5 is his brother Arthur, possibly the person sitting 5th left 2nd row.

[grimmy]

Marriage: 24 Oct 1880 Christ Church, Salford, Lancashire, England
Arthur Downs - 20 years, Butcher, Bachelor, 3 Clarendon Road
Mary Wilkinson - 17 years, Servant, Spinster, Clarendon Road
    Groom's Father: Henry Downs, Butcher
    Bride's Father: Thomas Wilkinson, Crumpet Maker
    Witness: Mark Schofield; Elizabeth Schofield
    Married by Banns by: William Smith Curate


Baptism: 28 Dec 1881 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancs.
Arthur Henry Downs - [Child] of Arthur Downs & Mary
    Born: 8 Dec 1881
    Abode: 310 Ordsall Lane
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: G. W. Petherick

Baptism: 23 Jan 1884 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancs.
Thomas Edwin Downs - [Child] of Arthur Downs & Mary
    Born: 16 Nov 1883
    Abode: 74 Derby Street
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: G. W. Petherick

Baptism: 16 Sep 1885 St Bartholomew, Salford, Lancs.
Elizabeth Alice Downs - [Child] of Arthur Downs & Mary
    Born: 16 Jul 1885
    Abode: 74 Derby St.
    Occupation: Butcher
    Baptised by: G. W. Petherick

[RaptorBob]

Wow thank you!  There is a fair bit of info here that we hadn't managed to find before, particularly about Thomas's father and mother!  I saw on a census that Arthur had 3 kids, but only 2 were living on the 1901/1911 census.

[grimmy]

This could be Arthur's father:

Marriage: 15 Sep 1878 Stowell Memorial, Salford, Lancashire, England
Henry Downs - 58, Butcher, Widower, 68 W. Worsley St.
Annie Noel - (X), 42, Widow, 11 Lindsay St.
    Groom's Father: Henry Downs, (deceased), Butcher
    Bride's Father: Thomas Wainwright, (deceased), Farmer
    Witness: Jessie Dean; Mary Dean
    Married by Licence by: William Doyle Rector


Eleanor Ada Gallafent was, of course, born Nellie Shimmin in 1883.

[RaptorBob]

Eleanors mother was Catherine (Kate) Shimmin, she married a Daniel Gallafent, but it's interesting that there's a Nellie Shimmin (using her mothers maiden name) in Manchester born at the same time.

This is getting a bit off topic, but I do greatly appreciate this information.

Where are you finding it ?  I have been using findmypast.co.uk but it doesn't seem to return anywhere near the detail that the above searches returned!

[tonyrod]

BOB, Looking at the photo, we have one sergeant (platoon) on left of the lieutenant with a tash, then on the lieutenant's right we have the other two sergeants  the one with a tash I would say was the other brother , 

[RaptorBob]

In all other pictures we have (pre/post war) Thomas never had a tash that we've seen.

In the attached picture of Thomas, the young boy is Norman Thomas' son, who would be about 6 or 7.  He was born in 1907 so that puts this picture just before he signed up around 1914.

I was thinking it was like the below strip from the main picture.  There are 4 people listed on the roll who should have 3 bars on their arm, but I can only see 2, and I've just noticed that the one I've marked as possibly Sgt. Downs is holding what looks like a cane.

[Wendi]

So Thomas never had a 'tash hummm

The medal card for Arthur H Downs tells that he entered for France on 10.11.15  a day before Thomas, it reads:

Manch R Sjt 19588
Bord R 31328

Medals 15 Star H/1/50 B3 Page 208

Victory & British inscribed Manch R Boarder R "H/1/103 B14 Page 3318"

Perhaps the medal rolls will confirm his Battalion.

Wendi

[RaptorBob]

Arthur must have bene promoted at some point after the 21st Btn B Company Platoon 5 picture was taken.  He is listed on the roll that goes with the picture as 19588 Corporal Downs, A H (on the 21st Btn photo identity project page)

[tonyrod]

hi bob, just had another look,my eyes are not the very best but look at your cpl downs right arm certainly looks like part of a third strip, ? 

[RaptorBob]

I've blown it up a bit...

Definately looks like 2 on the arm closest to the Sgt (his left).  On his right it looks like there is a fold in his jacket possibly giving the impression of 3.

[mack]

hiya bob.
theres a signed photo of nellie on this site.
google. actors fr-gre

mack