The System for Allocating Service Numbers / Regimental Nos?

[Tim Bell]

I am trying find an individual that joined the 17th Manchesters with my grandad in September 1914.  I had thought they may have consecutive regimental numbers.  However, this doesn't seem to make sense because D Company was selected first and I know 8055 is a low number from A in the 17th.

The only other information I have is the 8055 Pt A A Bell and this bloke worked together in the same office.  Only two of them joined up at that stage.  As I don't know which office this was, it leads me nowhere.  He was in the City Council post war and I believe Joseph Crossley accountants at some stage before, but probably not in September 1914.

Can anyone throw any light on this?

A Radio 4 interview with Martin Middlebrook and Arthur Bell held by IWM is my source:-
Yes, a pal from my office and myself, went down to the Ardwick Town Hall on the 1st of September 1914, where we were told that they'd  filled their requirements, but they were forming another  battalion, and if we'd like to go down the following day, we might be enrolled.  So we duly went down and we found that the system was to ask all people from say Tootlals - all people from the other big firms in the town - and got some quite large numbers from each of these big firms.  But the firm we belonged to, we were only two representatives, and there were a lot of other little firms like that. So what happened was; that these big firms were recruited first.  Well I'll say they were taken first, they weren't positively recruited at that moment.   And they stood in their ranks and formed companies.  The result was - that A Company, B Company, C Company and D Company - were formed in that way;  and the little, the 'riff raff' you might say, was in; what was then, would have been D company.  But, a strange thing happened. The whole gang was given order 'about turn' and what would have been D company became A company.  So A company was formed of the riff raff and D company was the bigger ones, like CPA and Tootals.

Tim

[themonsstar]

Hi Tim

If I was looking at soldiers numbers, I would go for the Manchester Pals Book of Honour, The Silver War Badge rolls & The CWGC for research.

You could also try:

The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society Vol 59 No 236 May  pages 175-181 Regimental Numbers part 1 by David Langley & Graham Stewart.

Vol 60  No 237  Aug 2009 Regt Numbers part 2 pages 11 - 22.

Vol 60  No 238  Nov 2009 Army Numbers part 3 pages 84 - 100.

Vol 60 No 239 Feb 2010  Regt Numbers part 4 pages 122 - 133.

Vol 60 No 240 May 2010 Army Regt Numbers Part 5 pages 176 - 190. 

( the next page 191 to this one is a piece by a Robert Bonner on the Mounted Infantry Companies of The Manchester Regiment Volunteer Battalions)

Best of luck with your research

Roy

[mack]

your grandfather worked at w.t glover+sons,old trafford

mack

[Devil Wood]

Where is/ was Ardwick Town Hall?
Barney

[timberman]

Found this

http://www.aidan.co.uk/eyewitness-in-manchester/001ewm/032_ardwick/index2.shtml


ALONG ARDWICK GREEN, at the corner of Higher Ardwick new houses have been built.
This site was once a row of Georgian style terraced facades which housed
Ardwick Town Hall (taken over by the City of Manchester in 1909)
and St Gregory's RC Boys School, formerly the Industrial School.

Timberman

[Tim Bell]

your grandfather worked at w.t glover+sons,old trafford

mack

Mack,
Thanks for this.  It is amazing to pull together the profile of a relative 99 years later!

I don't wish to push my luck, but do you have any records of Grandad's Pal from W T Glover who joined on the same day? Likely to have been in III Platoon.

If you let me know the source, I'll try to do some work myself...

Fantastic.

Tim

[mack]

your grandfathers details were in a casualty list in july 1916,it gave the warrener st sale address that you have,plus his workplace and that he had been wounded,this was probably the slight scalp wound he recieved,i havent come across anyone else from glovers in my database

mack

[Tim Bell]

Mack,
Thanks for this.
We can assume the other chap either survived unscathed (unlikely), or his former employer is not listed anywhere on casualty lists.
Thanks again
Tim

[tonyrod]

hi tim. your grandfathers photo, is in the 17th battalion photos, a coy 3 platoon,  the numbers 8054  8056 belong to
Medal card of Buxton, Alfred
Corps   Regiment No   Rank
17th Battalion Manchester Regiment   8054   Private a coy 2 platoon

Medal card of Booth, Bertram
Corps   Regiment No   Rank
17th Battalion Manchester Regiment   8056   Private  a coy  4 platoon

could be helpful. good luck ,tonyrod

[Tim Bell]

Thanks Tony,
We conclude...
Companies were determined by the order of initial volunteering in reverse order, generally based on the size of employer.
Numbers allocations in A Company were almost alphabetical by surname, but not exactly.
The christian names of Alfred, Allan and Bertram are alphabetical with the same initial to their surname.
Platoon allocations in our sample show consecutive Service Numbers in consecutive platoons 2, 3 & 4.

It appears the men of A company were called up for enlistment in groups with alphabetical surname order and then told to stand in christian name order.  Then as each man was dealt with, they received consecutive numbers and allocated to consecutive Platoons.

Otherwise this could be mere speculation based a on too small a sample....  Any way it's interesting to envisage the queue of men with the straw boaters working out what order to stand.

I conclude this method will not lead to the missing Pal who I now know (Thanks to Mack) worked at W T Glover.

Tim

[mack]

the 17th battalion was like all the others,they were allocated to their platoons based on the promise of pals serving togethor,eg men from the same firm,school,institution etc,half of one platoon in the 17th batt was made up of men from tootal,broadhurst+lee with a mixture of men from the small firms thrown in,it was like this throughout the two manchester brigades.

not all these men went to the recruiting office,the big firms compiled a list of men wanting to enlist,this list was then taken by messenger boy to the nearest pals recruiting station and the whole bunch was enrolled at the same time.

mack

[sphinx]

Thanks Tony,
We conclude...
Companies were determined by the order of initial volunteering in reverse order, generally based on the size of employer.
Numbers allocations in A Company were almost alphabetical by surname, but not exactly.
The christian names of Alfred, Allan and Bertram are alphabetical with the same initial to their surname.
Platoon allocations in our sample show consecutive Service Numbers in consecutive platoons 2, 3 & 4.

It appears the men of A company were called up for enlistment in groups with alphabetical surname order and then told to stand in christian name order.  Then as each man was dealt with, they received consecutive numbers and allocated to consecutive Platoons.

Otherwise this could be mere speculation based a on too small a sample....  Any way it's interesting to envisage the queue of men with the straw boaters working out what order to stand.

I conclude this method will not lead to the missing Pal who I now know (Thanks to Mack) worked at W T Glover.

Tim

Say that again?

[Tim Bell]

At risk of turning myself in knots (again), I've been looking at this question again.

I note 8057 A Barratt, 8058 T Barrow, 8059 not identified, 8060 H Brown, 8061 A Bull and 8062 C Butler are all in V Platoon of B Cmpny 17th Bttn. 

It is unlikely these men with the B surname had worked together, confirming Mack's post about filling gaps with the individual men, outside the employee groups.

The earlier post shows 8054, 8055 and 8056 in II, III and IV respectively.

Tim