Author Topic: 3/5th Manc Regiment  (Read 1407 times)

LEYTHER1

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3/5th Manc Regiment
« on: April 30, 2012, 08:13:49 PM »
Good evening
Hope I am on the right forum for this request?
Please can anyone find information on my Great Granddad.  I have obtained a death cert today for his Wife, Catherine Jones and on it it states she is wife of ROBERT JONES, PVTE 3/5th MANCHESTER REGIMENT (COAL MINER).

Now the death cert is dated 8th Sept 1916 and I know Robert Jones was born in Noth Wales around 1872 before moving to Wigan Lancs and working as a coal miner.  I never knew he was in the army and have not found records on Ancestry.

When his Wife died in 1916 I am told all the children got split up - so could this be because he was called up for WW1 and wasn't around maybe?  If so, can anyone see a record for him?  I know he lived at 11 William Street, Ince, Wigan for many years and eventually died there in 1923 aged 51.

thank you in advance
Leyther1

timberman

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 08:46:27 PM »
 Hi Leyther1

Had a look on Ancestry with no luck.
There are loads of Robert Jones
On the medal index cards found these two.

Name: Robert Jones
1st/5th Manchester Regiment, 1469
 1st/5th Manchester Regiment, 200146,
1st/5th Manchester Regiment,  79543

Robert Jones
 Manchester M/C Regiment
1/5th Regimental Number: 202538

Did he have a middle name may help

Timberman

LEYTHER1

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 09:04:17 PM »
Hello

I do not believe he had a middle name I am afraid and like you, found loads of Robert Jones' ancestry.  No other research on the census' has shown him as a Private, so I assume he only even was in the Great War?

His Wife was Catherine, Father William, Mother Susannah (susan) if that is any use?

Do the medal index cards give any further reference?

Thank you
Lorraine

Offline sphinx

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »
lorraine, 

the 3rd/5th was a 3rd line territorial unit in the UK only used to train and draft soldiers to overseas units.

When and if he saw war service he could be transferred to the 1st and 2nd line battalions of the 5 th, 6th or 7th.

You need to widen your search parameters.

Regards

LEYTHER1

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 07:03:40 PM »
Thankyou
I am afraid it will perhaps be a dead end for me now as I don't know what esle to add and only discovered this regiment yesterday when I received the copy death certificate. 
I will see (and hope) if any future research brings up anything to help.

But thaks for the info on it being a TA division - as he would have been in his 40's, do you think it rare he woudl have gone overseas?

thanks
Lorraine

Offline mack

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2021, 10:52:50 PM »
its a bit late for this,i only just found it

drummer 1469 robert jones,11 william st,lower ince

mack
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 09:56:19 PM by mack »

Offline Gingerfreak

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2021, 06:09:49 PM »
Dear Lorraine

This is the information I have on Robert.

From his service number (1469) He enlisted with the 1/5th Manchester Regiment in the month of June 1912. From researching other numbers I've calculated it to be betwen 03 June and 20th June 1912.
As a Territorial he could enlist at the age of 17, the age for a regular soldier was 19. As a Drummer or bugler he could have joined as a "Boy soldier". They could join at the age of 14-17, but only with the consent of their parents. However,there are men within the battalion who started a military career at the age of 12. Territorial soldier agreed to serve 40 days and attend a two week camp every year. The 40 days were held at the drill hall located in Powell Street, Wigan. A territorial signed on for 2 - 4years and then had to "re-engage", basically sign on for another block of 2-4 years. This is an often overlooked piece of information because once the terms of service was completed, the man could pack his bags and go home. Several men did take the option. After March 1916, the Military Act came into effect. This stopped men from taking this option and their new contract would be "For the duration of the war".

As the Territorial Units function was to provide home service, in order to go overseas Robert would have signed the Imperial Service document. By the 10th August 90% of all the TF had signed up. All eager to fight, and expected to be sent to France.

Robert left Wigan in August 1914 and moved to one of the holding camps. On the 9th September 1914 the unit moved by rail to the port and on the 10th sailed for Egypt. The men weren't happy about it. they thought that they would miss the 'Show' in France.

The 1/5th was a territorial battalion that served in the Manchester Brigade, within the 42nd East Lancashire Division.  It consisted of 9 companies - A-E from Wigan, F - Patricroft, G- Leigh and H - Atherton. The whole division was made up from Territorial units. Changes were made to the TF units. This brought them into line with the regulars. The title 42nd East Lancashire Division was changed to 42nd (East Lancashire) Division. The Brigades lost thier town titles and were replaced by a number. The Manchesters Brigade was renumbered 127th Brigade and it remained so until the end of the war.  The companies where reduced from 8 to 4. I'm researching who was folded to form whom at the moment.

Robert had two brothers and a brother in law who served in WW1. There is a newspaper article that contains photographs of all four of them. (Wigan Examiner 28th August 1915 pg3). William and Thomas Lomax (Brother in law) served with the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. William was in Gallipoli at the same time as Robert. Thier brother Hugh was reported to be with the 2/5th Manchester and at Crowborough in Sussex training. The 2/5th were the initial recruiting battalion for the 1/5th. They sent drafts of men as battlefield replacement. I do not have a Hugh Roberts in my database so I'm presuming that he stayed with the 2/5th when it joined the 66th Division.

Robert arrived on Gallipoli on 06 May 1915. From this date I can tell you that he is part of the 900 oiginal number of men who arrived and not a subsequent draft. He stayed with the Battalion until 1917. He was allocated a new service number in April 1917. 200146. All territorial units started to use a renumbering system. Each battalion was allocated blocks of numbers. The 1/5th were alocated 20000-25000. From Robert's medal roll it appears that he was posted from the 1/5th to the 20th Manchester Regiment. He was allocated Service number: 79543.

The information you gave was that he served with the 3/5th Battalion. This was a "base" unit. The sick, wounded (recuperating) where administered by this unit. It was based at the drill hall in Wigan. Later in the war it moved to Whitley near Wigan, then onto Southport. This was before mid 1916. There is a high probability that Robert was wounded or sick in the Dardanelles and returned to the UK before mid 1916. After mid 1916 the 3/5, along with others merged to form the 5th Reserve Battalion. It moved to north Yorkshire.

He applied for a pension. He has two pension cards. One is a "survived ww1", the other is an application for disability. It was rejected, the date states 08 May 1922.

I haven't completed a full search on this lad yet. I will keep you posted if I find anymore information.

 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 06:17:36 PM by Gingerfreak »

Offline Gingerfreak

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Re: 3/5th Manc Regiment
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2021, 06:53:16 PM »
On further research
There are several Robert Jones' from Wales living in the Wigan area. Two are in Ince. This one is the closest.

Robert Jones 39yrs of age. From Camarthenshire, Wales - Colliery worker - Hewer - Out of work
Catherine Jones 36yrs of age - From Camarthenshire Wales - housewife
William Jones 19yrs old - Colliery worker - Hewer
Lily Jones 18yrs old - Mill hand
Robert Jones - 15yrs old - Labourer below ground - probably a Drawer/putter
Hugh Jones - 13yrs old - Labourer above ground - coal sorting
Elizabeth Jones - 9 Yrs old - at school
Maggie Jones - 6 yrs old - at school
Tom Jones - 2yrs old.
James Jones - Boarder - Labourer below ground. He was also fro Camarthenshire.

If this is your relative, the Robert I mentioned above is his son.