Henry Saycell 3356 2nd Bn

[Alix]

I'm trying to research my gr-gr-grandfather Pte Henry Saycell, who died of wounds on the 17th July 1916, and is now buried in Etaples cemetery. I've managed to find a copy of his medal card, which tells me that he went to France on the 29.5.15, and fought with the 2nd Battalion.
He was born in 1882 and was married to Catherine Hynes, with 2 very young sons. I believe he lived in Harpuhey, but am not certain of this. After his death, my grandad believes his wife couldn't cope (possibly financially) with two children, so the elder, Thomas, was given to friends or relatives to look after. My gr-grandad barely ever spoke of his childhood, so we're not very sure about this.
Would there be any way to find out whether or not this was really what happened? And also how much she would have recieved as a pension?
The other thing I am interested in is when would he have likely recieved his wounds, and what the general procedure was with the wounded.
Thanks for anything you can find  

[grimmy]

Hi Alix,

The 1901 census has him at 38 Belper St, Harpurhey, parents Henry and Elizabeth Saycell (Henry Saycell married Elizabeth Troy in Manchester, 1870). In 1911 the family were at 15 Cicero St, Moston. In 1881 they were at 5 Chandley St, New Cross (mother-in-law Mary Troy, widow, was living with them).

Known children:

Sarah E   birth reg'd Ancoats   1875
Henry   birth reg'd Ancoats   1882
John W   birth reg'd Ancoats   1878
Thomas   birth reg'd Ancoats   1884
Mary Elizabeth   birth reg'd Ancoats   1887
Agnes b. Manchester c.1893

Henry junior married Catherine Hynes in 1912.

[grimmy]

The various spellings of the Saycell surname didn't help, but I found them at 11 Tavistock St, Harpurhey in 1891.

Elizabeth Troy was the daughter of John Troy who married Mary Power in Manchester, 1848.

[Alix]

Thank you
I have found Saycell spelled as anything from Cecil to Sickle, but it makes it a lot harder to work around, that's for sure!

[timberman]

Hi Alix

Welcome to the forum.

I've looked on Ancestry and can only find his MIC
and his entry in the SDGW.

I'll have a look in the war diaries over the
weekend and see what else I can find for you.

Timberman

[tonyrod]

HI ALIX,  his grave photo on site, 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/manchester-regiment/3253353493/in/set-72157603729617814/
tonyrod

[Alix]

Thanks a lot everyone
What does SDGW stand for?

[harribobs]

Soldiers Died (in the) Great War

It's a huge reference book in several volumes giving basic details of the men that died in the war 

[timberman]

Hi Alix

His entry in the Soldiers Died (in the) Great War

Name:    Henry Saycell
Birth Place:    Manchester
Death Date:    17 Jul 1916
Death Location:    France & Flanders
Enlistment Location:    Manchester
Rank:    Private
Regiment:    Manchester Regiment
Battalion:    2nd Battalion
Number:    3356
Type of Casualty:    Died of wounds
Theatre of War:    Western European Theatre

Timberman

[Alix]

Thanks
If he went to France on May 29th 1915, when would have been likely that he signed up? I don't know how long the training process took at that time

[timberman]

Hi Alix
I've had a look in the diaries, there is not a lot in the day to day
write up, but there is a big report at the end of the month
about the action of the 2nd Bn before the 17th.

I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment
but I will get back to you as soon as I can.


Your question as to when he signed up
can be difficult to answer without his service records.
The reason being not all the regular soldiers in the 2nd Bn went
to France in Aug 1914.

As an example

My Granddad Sgt H Chadwick was in the 2nd Bn from 1910.
He first went to France 02/06/1915
So it is possible that he was a regular and was doing other duties
and was not needed straight away, or stationed somewhere else,
or a reservist  and did some training before going to France,
or had signed up when war broke out and then did his training.
Looking at his MIC it only mentions the 2nd Bn so that is the Bn
he went to France with.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Timberman

[Alix]

Thanks for all the info
Have talked again to my Grandad again, and it was definetly for financial reasons that Thomas was given up, and as the two brothers never really knew each other, I'm guessing that it wasn't to someone living close by. If there's any way to find out where and who he went to, that'd be really great.

[timberman]

Hi Alix

I'll try and answer some of your original questions regarding your gr-gr-grandfather Pte Henry Saycell he is buried in the Etaples Military Cemetery
The cemetery contains 10,771 Commonwealth burials of the First World War, the earliest dating from May 1915.
35 of these burials are unidentified.

A short history of Etaple.

During the First World War, the area around Etaples was the scene of immense concentrations of Commonwealth reinforcement camps and hospitals. It was remote from attack, except from aircraft, and accessible by railway from both the northern or the southern battlefields. In 1917, 100,000 troops were camped among the sand dunes and the hospitals, which included eleven general, one stationary, four Red Cross hospitals and a convalescent depot, could deal with 22,000 wounded or sick. In September 1919, ten months after the Armistice, three hospitals and the Q.M.A.A.C. convalescent depot remained.

Around the time he was wounded the 2nd Battalion were around the area of  Ovilliers La Boissell
They were in and out of the trenches almost on a daily  bases . The war diaries does not give totals of  killed and wounded at this time. So from being wounded at Ovilliers La Boissell and dieing at Etaples   he would have first been taken to a Casualty Clearing Stations were he would have had his wounds dealt with and they would have arranged for him to be moved to a hospital at Etaples  a distance of  134km.

Casualty Clearing Stations (the following from First World War .com)
The institution of these small mobile hospitals near the fighting line had revolutionized the surgery of the War, and was the means of saving thousands of lives.  It was found that the fatal sepsis and gas gangrene of wounds could be avoided if effective operation was performed within thirty-six hours of their infliction, and all dead and injured tissue removed, in spite of the extensive mutilation incurred.
The essential parts of a C.C.S. were: (1) A large reception marquee.  (2) A resuscitation tent, where severely shocked or apparently dying cases were warmed up in heated beds, or transfused before operation.  (3) A pre-operation tent, where stretcher cases were prepared for operation.  (4) A large operating tent with complete equipment for six tables.  (5) An evacuation tent, where the cases were sent after operation, to await the hospital train for the Base.  (6) Award tent for cases requiring watching for twenty-four hours, or too bad for evacuation.

So all I can say he was wounded badly, when I don't know but they were able to move him from the C.C.S. to a Hospital were he die of his wounds.

All I've tried to do is give you an idea of what would of happened to him from when he was wounded to the time he died of his wounds.

The following may help with the question to the pension she may have got.

The National Archives

Disability and dependents' pensions in the First World War

Click on the link

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/first-world-war-pensions.htm

Timberman

[timberman]

Modern map
A is Etaple

B is Ovilliers La Boissell

Click on picture to make it bigger.

[Alix]

Thank you so much for all of that. I'm hoping to visit within the next year, so its good to get an idea of where he was