Pt John Johnson. Clayton cenotaph.

[Clarky53]

Hi, help please.
John Johnson's name is on the cenotaph in Clayton Park, off Ashton New Road, Manchester. The family story is he was a pacifist who wouldn't bear arms but volunteered to be a stretcher bearer. The story is he was a water carrier at the Somme (1st or 2nd ?) and was sent with another chappie for supplies, both never returned. It is also said he died on his birthday. In the 1911 census it shows him as being 15 yrs old, living at 3 Chapel St, Clayton and being employed as a type setter in a print work's. I have no idea which Regiment or Pal's Battalion he was in. This is a very obscure request I know, any help at all would be very much appreciated. Thanks.

[timberman]

Hi Clarky53

Welcome to the forum.
There are 504 J Johnsons on the CWGC site, several are from the Manchester Regiment, but this is the only one that died in 1916.


Name: JOHNSON Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private Regiment/Service: Manchester Regiment
Unit Text: 21st Bn.
Date of Death: 25/02/1916
Service No: 19165
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: I. B. 30.
Cemetery: BRONFAY FARM MILITARY CEMETERY, BRAY-SUR-SOMME

Hopefully someone else may be able to help

Timberman

[Clarky53]

Hi Timberman and thank you.
                                              How would I go about finding his home address to confirm if this is my John Johnson. Or is there any other ways of getting confirmation.

                                              Cheers.

[mack]

19165 j johnsons first name was joseph.

the only soldier i know from clayton called john johnson,was pte 4842 john johnson,11th lancs fusiliers,he was reported missing on 9th oct 1916,born beswick resided in clayton,also missing on the same day,were cpl 4846 john jones and pte 8745 william ashton of 16 montague st,pendleton,cpl jones doesnt appear to have been commemorated on the CWGC.

mack

[Clarky53]

Hi Mack.
            Brilliant, I have just checked the 1901 census and it shows he was 5 at that time, being born in Beswick and living in Peary St, Clayton with my nanna and grandad my uncles and great grandmother. I'm a member of genes reunited would they have his service record or would I need to appeal elsewhere.

                                      You blokes are amazing thank you.

                                                     Fred Clark.

[mack]

Hi Mack.
            Brilliant, I have just checked the 1901 census and it shows he was 5 at that time, being born in Beswick and living in Peary St, Clayton with my nanna and grandad my uncles and great grandmother. I'm a member of genes reunited would they have his service record or would I need to appeal elsewhere.

                                      You blokes are amazing thank you.

                                                     Fred Clark.

hiya fred
there doesnt appear to be any service records for john,in 1918 the above johnson family were living at 19 aintree st,clayton,your uncle sylvester was pte 380171 sylvester johnson liverpool regiment and your uncle samuel was pte 16455 samuel johnson 7th border regiment.

mack

[Clarky53]

Mack.
        I don't know what to say. A billion thanks. As I said before you fella's are amazing.

                                  Very Best Regards

                                        Fred.

[Clarky53]

Hi.
   The most asked family question now is how do we find out what date, where and how John and his comerade's lost their lives. Were their bodies recovered and interred in the grave mentioned above. Our intention is to visit this battle site and grave yard. What were the circumstances for the lads being together and where were they going. Any help in pointing me in the right direction is appreciated.

                                                        Regard's

                                                       Fred Clark

[timberman]

Hi Fred

This is the CWGC entry for Pte. John Johnson 4842

Name:    JOHNSON, JOHN
Initials:    J
Nationality:    United Kingdom
Rank:    Private
Regiment/Service:    Lancashire Fusiliers
Unit Text:    11th Bn.
Date of Death:    09/10/1916
Service No:    4842
Casualty Type:    Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:    Pier and Face 3 C and 3 D.
Memorial:    THIEPVAL MEMORIAL

I'm afraid his body was never found and he has no known grave.
He is remembered on the Thiepval Memorial

The following is taken from the CWGC site.

Cemetery:    THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Country:    France
Locality:    Somme

Visiting Information:
   The Panel numbers (or Pier and Face) quoted at the end of each entry relate to the panels dedicated to the Regiment served with. In some instances where a casualty is recorded as attached to another Regiment, his name may alternatively appear within their Regimental Panel (or Pier and Face). Please refer to the on-site Memorial Register Introduction to determine the alternative panel numbers (or Pier and Face) if you do not find the name within the quoted Panels (or Pier and Face).
Location Information:    The Thiepval Memorial will be found on the D73, next to the village of Thiepval, off the main Bapaume to Albert road (D929). Each year a major ceremony is held at the memorial on 1 July.

Historical Information:
   On 1 July 1916, supported by a French attack to the south, thirteen divisions of Commonwealth forces launched an offensive on a line from north of Gommecourt to Maricourt. Despite a preliminary bombardment lasting seven days, the German defences were barely touched and the attack met unexpectedly fierce resistance. Losses were catastrophic and with only minimal advances on the southern flank, the initial attack was a failure. In the following weeks, huge resources of manpower and equipment were deployed in an attempt to exploit the modest successes of the first day. However, the German Army resisted tenaciously and repeated attacks and counter attacks meant a major battle for every village, copse and farmhouse gained. At the end of September, Thiepval was finally captured. The village had been an original objective of 1 July. Attacks north and east continued throughout October and into November in increasingly difficult weather conditions. The Battle of the Somme finally ended on 18 November with the onset of winter. In the spring of 1917, the German forces fell back to their newly prepared defences, the Hindenburg Line, and there were no further significant engagements in the Somme sector until the Germans mounted their major offensive in March 1918. The Thiepval Memorial, the Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, bears the names of more than 72,000 officers and men of the United Kingdom and South African forces who died in the Somme sector before 20 March 1918 and have no known grave. Over 90% of those commemorated died between July and November 1916. The memorial also serves as an Anglo-French Battle Memorial in recognition of the joint nature of the 1916 offensive and a small cemetery containing equal numbers of Commonwealth and French graves lies at the foot of the memorial. The memorial, designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens, was built between 1928 and 1932 and unveiled by the Prince of Wales, in the presence of the President of France, on 1 August 1932 (originally scheduled for 16 May but due to the death of French President Doumer the ceremony was postponed until August). The dead of other Commonwealth countries, who died on the Somme and have no known graves, are commemorated on national memorials elsewhere.

No. of Identified Casualties:    72192 (these are the names on all the panels)

Picture of the Memorial

Timberman

[timberman]

 I do have pictures of all the Manchester's names on the Memorial but John was in the  Lancashire Fusiliers
so am unable to help with a picture.

Timberman

PS If you google  Lancashire Fusiliers WW1 there is a lot of information out there good luck.

[Clarky53]

Am utterly speechless and devastated. I never thought, even realised, that many Commenwealth soldiers were "no known graves".


                                                 Fred

[timberman]

Hi Fred

Just a bit more back ground information on the missing.

During the 1914-18 war the UK had almost the same number of soldiers having a known grave as unknown.

Due to the huge use of shelling in the 1914-18 war meant that many soldiers were never found, or were buried with a grave stone titled "A Soldier of the Great War".

The UK has more WWI service personnel with no known grave 409,774

India was the only country in the 1914-18 war who have more people with unknown graves than with actual graves.

Tyne Cot Memorial is another that has a section to the missing, it commemorates almost 35,000 servicemen from the UK and New Zealand who fought in the Ypres Salient after 16th August 1917, and whose graves are not known.


World War I casualties
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The total number of casualties in World War I, both military and civilian, was about 37 million: 16 million deaths and 21 million wounded. The total number of deaths includes 9.7 million military personnel and about 6.8 million civilians. The Entente Powers (also known as the Allies) lost about 5.7 million soldiers while the Central Powers lost about 4 million.

Unlike most (if not all) conflicts that took place in the 19th century and before, the majority of military deaths in World War I were caused by combat as opposed to disease. Improvements in medicine as well as the increased lethality of military weaponry were both factors in this development. Nevertheless, disease (including the Spanish flu) still caused a significant proportion of military deaths for all belligerents.

Timberman

[mack]

the reason why most indian soldiers have no known grave is because they were cremated,as is the custom of their religion.

mack

[mack]

its estimated that there are about 150.000 allied soldiers still unaccounted for,who still lie under the soil of france+flanders from WW1

mack