George Duffey 4124734

[Duffey]

Hi all

I've been reading many posts on this site over that last few days and am keener than ever to research in to my Granddads involvement in WW2. Both my Granddad and Father have since passed away. My starting point is my father's birth certificate in which it states my granddad (George Duffey) occupation  as '4124734 Sergeant Major, Manchester Regiment.' The date of the Birth Certificate is 24 January 1944.

Two things that I'm confused about to start with, is that I have read there was no such rank as Sergeant Major during the WW2 and also that his number would indicate he was part of the Cheshire Regiment, as the Manchester Regiment all start with 3's even though my father's birth certificate clearly indicates both.

I wonder if it was Regimental Sergeant-Major as from what I can tell is a valid rank in 1944, is this correct?
I have the forms to request the Personal records of deceased service personnel but with only the small amount of information that doesn't add up yet a little worried they will not be able to find any records.

If anyone can shed some light or have any advice on continuing my research on this i'd deeply appreciate it.

Many Thanks


Simon Duffey

[themonsstar]

Hi Duffey

Welcome to the site.

The rank of Sergeant Major was very common in both wars and still is now, its short for Company Sergeant Major (CSM) (WOII) so yes you are right there is no such rank as Sergeant Major, and has not been for a very long time in the British Army. Also no one would ever call the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) just Sergeant Major in any unit within the British Army upon Death   But the Foot Guards do call there (RSM) "THE" Sergeant Major


Both the Manchester & Cheshire Regiments were Machine Gun Battalions so it would be very easy to post a soldiers from one to the other.

I would git his service records as this will help you with your research.

[Wendi]

Hi Simon and Welcome to our Forum !

The only other thing you will need (apart from money  ) to get his service record is his death certificate.  Do you have that?

Wendi 

[george.theshed197]

Hi Simon,,
Welcome to the site - however I have some queries - you give date of birth from his certificate as January 1944 ; this would give a potential date for joining up as about 1961/2 - by then army numbers would have been in the 'new series' away from the old original Regimental number commencing with 3's and 4's etc.
Secondly by 1961 The Manchester Regiment had already amalgamated with the King's Regiment (1958) -
Is there per chance a typo error being shown - in his number - should it have read 14124734 rather than '4124734 ? but there again that was a number issue around 1943/44 which does not tally with his date of birth or - possibly in the date of birth??
I did know a 'Mick' Duffy who served in the 1st Bn The Border Regiment during and post WWII and was  R.Q.M.S  c 1948 but I would guess that his dob was more into the 1914 or prior vintage.
Looking forward to hearing more from you,
Take care,
Regards, George.

PS I may be confusing the birth certificate here as being for your Grandfather when in fact it may be for your father.

[Duffey]

Hello

Many Thanks for the replys so far. I Will be requesting the service documents (after I've tracked down the birth Certificate) signiture of nex of kin shouldn't be too much of a probelm. I've read this can take up to 6 months? Is this correct or can I expect them sooner than this?

Is Company Sergeant Major a good rank? Where does this come in the rank order?

Will the details in the records at Kew be different to what the MOD will supply?

I find all this incredibly interesting.

To clear up the confusion, it is my father that was born in 1944. It is on my fathers birth certificate where my Grandad
(George Duffey) details were listed. I don't know how old My grandad was in 1944, or his date of birth. When I get hold of the death certificate I'm hoping this will give me some more deatials to go off.

[george.theshed197]

Hi Simon,
Second time of responding, just lost my pevious letter - Yes indeed C.S.M. (W.O. II) is a very good rank to have achieved - starting from Pte.; you then  have L/Cpl, Full Cpl, Sgt; C/Sgt (infantry) Staff.Sgt Corps then CSM. Second highest non commisioned rank just below that of R.S.M. - generally takes about fifteen or so years to achieve in most cases.
Insofar as records are concerned the ones you will get from the MoD will be his complete service details, when promoted, where served including details of dates etc. general description and details of NoK, some medical details etc. Courses attended with gradings and so forth, I cannot speak for the ones from Kew as they do not apply to WWII personnel.
Will browse the bmd's to see what if anything I can find for you. what was your fathers First name?
Take care,
George.

[Duffey]

Hi George

Many thanks for your response, I'm delighted to hear that about his rank. I'd really appreciate you looking on the bmd's, thank you. My Fathers name was Barry Duffey (1944-1990). My Grandfather is George Duffey, married to Alice Duffey residing in Silsden, Subdistrict of Kildwick in the county of York (as stated on my fathers Birth Certificate).

Again many thanks for your help George.

Simon

[Wendi]

I Will be requesting the service documents (after I've tracked down the birth Certificate)

Simon !  it's not his birth certificate you will need it's his DEATH certificate !

Will the details in the records at Kew be different to what the MOD will supply?

No records of service personnel who served after 1920 (in general) are held at Kew.  Because of DataProtection etc they are all held by the MOD and available only to next of kin and those applying on their behalf.

Wendi 

[george.theshed197]

Morning Simon,
Bmd results to date -
your father Barry DUFFEY, was born Mar qtr. 1944, (mother's maiden name was JONES) Skipton, 9a : 41.
From that I found the following marriage -
DUFFEY, George m. JONES , Alice Mar qtr, 1941 in Skipton, Yorks. 9a : 77.

I am now trying to go back one further generation to begin with but am having difficulties not knowing your grandfather's dob - will experiment as is my want.
Hoping that I am on the right track, take care.
George.

[Duffey]

Hi

Wendi - Many thanks for the clarification. One question I have... I'll be getting the death certificate from the death registra in my Grandfathers Local town or if that does not prove possible the internet. Will the MOD accept photocopies?

Afternoon George - Yes. I definitley think you have hit the right one. Interesting that they chose Skipton to get married. I know it is quite local and a lovely town "Gateway to the Yorkshire Dales". I'm hoping to get more deatails this weekend on my Grandfather as I have arranged to meet his next of kin (My uncle) this weekend to get the forms signed. Many thanks for this information George. I'm really looking forward to finding more about my Grandfathers regiment and his involvement in the army. I wonder if My Great Grandfather was involved in WW1. Will try and find out this weekend.

Many Thanks to all for your advise and comments.

[Wendi]

Your welcome Simon !

And yes photocopies are acceptable ~ they have ways and means of checking you out    LOL

Wendi 

[george.theshed197]

Morning again Simon,
I believe my experiment paid off -
These look like your grandfather's details - Death Reg. George DUFFEY,(born 24 Oct 1918), Dec. qtr. 1972, Manchester, 10E : 510. From that came -
Birth Reg. George DUFFEY, (HELME), Leigh, Dec. qtr. 1918, 8c : 396.

Parents details of marriage.
Patrick DUFFY ( Note different spelling for father's surname) married Margaret HELME Leigh,Jun qtr. 1913,
8c:458 .
Seeing what else can be found,
Cheers and take care,
George.

[Duffey]

Hi George

Wow, many thanks for this what a revelation and it does makes sense. With Duffey / Duffy originating from Ireland it could well have got lost in translation with lack of people that could read or write back then. Also Patrick is a very Irish name. I spoke to my Uncle yesterday who seemed to remember always calling his grandfather John, so at the moment that doesn't tie in unless it was his middle name.

I now have a copy of the death certificate and next of kin signiture, so will be stumping up the cash and sending of for my grandfathers records on Tuesday. Also will be making a trip to the Library to the BDM records and see what else I can find, when I can get some time of work. I'll post my finding when I receive the records back and if I can make any further head way.

Also My uncle advised that it was either the Cheshire or the Manchesters that was very difficult to get into and often posted between the two so that is why the confusion might come from with the numbers. And that My grandfather spent some time in Asia. I also have 5 service medals that I thought were randomly collected but infact belonged to my grandfather to. Looking forward to getting the details now.

Thank you George, Wendi and 'the monsstar' for your time and efforts so far. Really appreciated.

If anyone has any further information or stories on the medals in the picture I've attached, that would be great. From left to right Palestine (With an Angle on the reverse), 1939-1945 (Picture of a lion killing an eagle and another animal with a tail), The Defence Medal, 1939 - 1945 star, The France and German Star.

Many Thanks

Simon

[Duffey]

Looks like the 1st is...
The George Medal - for defending the home front

The George Medal ranks just below the George Cross in the military honours hierarchy.  Like the George Cross, it is unusual as it is designed primarily as a recognition of civilian acts of bravery (but can also be awarded to military personnel for actions for which military honours would not normally granted including acts of great bravery not in presence of the enemy).

Its history:
The George Medal was created by King George VI on the advice of Winston Churchill in late 1940 during the height of the German blitz on London.  Its intention was to reward the numerous acts of civilian courage taking place on the home front in wartime Britain - 'acts of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger'. 

As part of the honour, recipients are entitled to use the letters GM after their name.

The second "The British War Medal 1939-45", Was this for serving in India (not Asia, my mistake) as it says as part of the wording on the reverse INDIAIAE

The Third  The Defence Medal

The Fourth being The 1939 - 1945 Star

The Fifth being The France and Germany Star.

[george.theshed197]

Hi Simon,
Some corrections re the medals displayed -
firstly they are mounted possibly in the wrong order however will correct that later.
As displayed the first is not the George  Medal but the General Service Medal ( what we disrespectfully referred to as 'The Palmolive issue (Green, Purple, Green) as opposed the 'Colgate wrapper issue( Purple, Green, Purple) and should bear a  clasp denoting for which theatre it was issued and have his number, rank, name and regiment in which he was serving at that time engraved on the rim.  The second one is as you say the 1939-45 War Medal issued to all who had completed 28 days service (anywhere) between 3rd September 1939 and 3rd September 1945. No 3 again correct the Defence Medal for service on the Home Front (in UK); the fourth is again correct The 1939- 45 Star for three months service between those dates if my memory serves me rightly and the final one the France and Germany star for service in Europe up to the end of the war.
Now then the correct order - If the GSM has the clasp PALESTINE with no date on it, it is for service in that country prior to 1939 and should be in first place; he was too young for it to have been for Mesopotamia 1920 rebellion Palestine with 1945-1948 pr any other country it should be in fifth place. Second should be the 1939-45 Star, 3rd The France and Germany Star,4th The Defence Medal and then the 1939-45 War Medal.

Having reread some of your latest letters I am inclined to think my statement re the GSM puts it into First place. Also re your uncle calling his grandfather John - quite possible as there was another Patrick in the family according to the 1901 census, a brother aged 50.
Cheers,
Take care,
George.