Introduction and queries about Manchester men

[hesadevil]

i have the military medal roll for the manchesters pat,james joined the 2/8th manchesters,his service number is one that was issued to the 2/8th,he was a private when he won his MM,he must have transferred to the 2/6th battalion shortly after he won it

mack

Ah - that explains it. His service papers are missing so I have no idea which battalion he was with when he enlisted. Are there any details about how or where he won the MM? It isn't mentioned on his medal card.

Pat

[mack]

military medal awards usual appear in the london gazette about 2 months after the deed,there may be some mention in the 2/8th battalions war diary.
he enlisted in the 2/8th manchesters originally,not all medal cards mention MM awards

mack

[mack]

hiya pat.
with regards to the john ryder who died at gallipoli,you can cross him off your list,11942 john ryder died in the 87th field ambulance on gallipoli after being shot in the head on 22-8-1915,he was 34yrs old  and married with 3 kids,lived at 2 ackland st,ardwick,his widow elizabeth,ann[nee jones]later moved to 45 princess st,ardwick.

mack

[hesadevil]

he must have transferred to the 2/6th battalion shortly after he won it

mack

Mack - this would explain the transfer

2/8th (Ardwick) Battalion
Formed at Ardwick in August 1914 as a second line unit. Record same as 2/5th Bn.
13 February 1918 : disbanded in France.

What I need now is some information about where the Battalions were between Poelcapelle, 9 October 1917  and March 1918.

[Fritz Bayer]

They're also at Kew (diaries were kept in (at least) triplicate)...

Dave

...and the area of Villeret, carpeza Copse and Fervaque farm where they were on the 21st March (map dated Feb 1918)...

[hesadevil]

They're also at Kew (diaries were kept in (at least) triplicate)...

Dave

...and the area of Villeret, carpeza Copse and Fervaque farm where they were on the 21st March (map dated Feb 1918)...

Thank you so much for this, Dave. We've searched for Carpeza copse on Googlemaps and have found the village of Carpeza but I'm not sure that is where we need to be going. I now have more locations to look at.

[Fritz Bayer]

Here're the locations on several modern map extracts so you know exactly where it is...

[Fritz Bayer]

...extract from Official History map showing the location of battalions on 21st March 1918...

[Fritz Bayer]

What I need now is some information about where the Battalions were between Poelcapelle, 9 October 1917  and March 1918.

Assuming that he was in the 2/8th battalion until disbandment (thereby transferring to the 2/6th in Feb 1918), then he saw most of his service - in and out of the line - after October 1917 - in the (general) Ypres area (Ypres, Reninghelst, Borre, Potijze, Zonnebeke and Broodseinde), moving south to Villeret at the end of February 1918. Most time between Oct and March was spent in various camps/billets resting, refitting and training or engaged on working parties and, when in the line, on routine trench holding duties with most casualties being due to shellfire. It was a (relatively!) quiet period.

The 2/6th bn was in the Villeret/Montigny Farm sector from Feb 26th to March 21st 1918. Still relatively quiet with very light casualties.

dave

[hesadevil]

What I need now is some information about where the Battalions were between Poelcapelle, 9 October 1917  and March 1918.

Assuming that he was in the 2/8th battalion until disbandment (thereby transferring to the 2/6th in Feb 1918), then he saw most of his service - in and out of the line - after October 1917 - in the (general) Ypres area (Ypres, Reninghelst, Borre, Potijze, Zonnebeke and Broodseinde), moving south to Villeret at the end of February 1918. Most time between Oct and March was spent in various camps/billets resting, refitting and training or engaged on working parties and, when in the line, on routine trench holding duties with most casualties being due to shellfire. It was a (relatively!) quiet period.

The 2/6th bn was in the Villeret/Montigny Farm sector from Feb 26th to March 21st 1918. Still relatively quiet with very light casualties.

dave

Is it possible that he was recommended for the MM  in October 1917 when the 66th Brigade was involved in the fighting  on the Somme? The medal was awarded early in January the following year. I'll trawl the London Gazette again for any mention of him after January 14th.

I can't thank you enough for this Dave, especially the maps. We are building a piccture of his movements on March 21st and are plotting visits to the Manchester's War Memorials around St Quentin. I know he's not buried in any of them, but I want to go and pay my respects to the men who were serving alongside him

Pat

[Fritz Bayer]

I know he's not buried in any of them,

the thing is, Pat, you don't know whether he's actually buried in any of the nearby cemeteries (chances are that he is actually - most likely under a 'A Soldier of the Great War' headstone rather than just 'vanished') and, unfortunately, will probably never find this out 100%. Using nearby Villeret Old Churchyard as a quick example...out of 19 CWGC burials in there, several are of men of the 2/6th Manchesters who died on 21st March 1918. There also happen to be 5 'Unknowns' in there. There is every chance that one of these 5 contains the remains of James (but we'll probably never know for sure)... but the same could also be said for other nearby cemeteries.

dave

[hesadevil]

I know he's not buried in any of them,

the thing is, Pat, you don't know whether he's actually buried in any of the nearby cemeteries (chances are that he is actually - most likely under a 'A Soldier of the Great War' headstone rather than just 'vanished') and, unfortunately, will probably never find this out 100%. Using nearby Villeret Old Churchyard as a quick example...out of 19 CWGC burials in there, several are of men of the 2/6th Manchesters who died on 21st March 1918. There also happen to be 5 'Unknowns' in there. There is every chance that one of these 5 contains the remains of James (but we'll probably never know for sure)... but the same could also be said for other nearby cemeteries.

dave

That's true. All the more reason for paying respects at all the nearby cemeteries. I have some RBL crosses to plant beside the graves.

I have found the entry in the London Gazette Issue 30476 supplements page 827 but no mention of citaction.

This has been a fascinating and emotional couple of weeks for me. I've gone from thinking there was only one relative who served in WW1, to finding six more. Thomas Harding about whom I still can't find a trace. I'm going to have to elimate those on WGC website who are definitely NOT him and look for the resting places of any who might be him. Don't know which Regiment he served with and can't assume it would have been the Manchesters. George Elphick (another great uncle) was with the Liverpool Regiment, even though he was a Manchester man.

 James Alfred was my father's uncle on his mother's side of the family. Dad was 4 years old in 1918. I wonder did he even know about his WW1 service?
Pat

[Fritz Bayer]

I have found the entry in the London Gazette Issue 30476 supplements page 827 but no mention of citaction.

Unfortunately, the LG didn't publish MM citations and most went up in smoke in 1941. A rare few can still be found , however, but the best source of info for them are the local newspapers for the time between the deed that warranted the award and the publication in the LG. If an obituary exists (though late March to April 1918 was a very busy time for obits and many soldiers get just a mention in a list rather than a full blown obit at this period), there may be a mention of the MM there too.

Dave

[hesadevil]

I have just copied the info from the downloaded pdf file from the London Gazette and this is what I got - 303395 Pte. J. A. Eyder, Manch. B. (Manchester) Little wonder I've been having trouble tracking him. The pdf page shows Ryder but searching on that name gives nil results. Modern technology is wonderful - except when it's not.

I should have remembered the 1st rule of geneology - the information is there to be found only if whoever transcribed the original document was accurate.

[hesadevil]

hiya pat.
with regards to the john ryder who died at gallipoli,you can cross him off your list,
mack

Thanks, Mack. I'll pass these details to the other person researching Ryders from Manchester.

Pat