Author Topic: Private William Carter 8494 17th  (Read 12775 times)

cartesr

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Private William Carter 8494 17th
« on: April 29, 2010, 09:21:23 AM »
Hi

I was wondering if anybody could provide some info and knowledge re my relative. Thanks to Chris (on the old forum) a few years ago I was able to identify him and obtain his number and medal card. Unfortunatley I had to put research on the back burner, but ive been able to pick it up again and was hoping somebody could shed some light

he was called William Carter his number was 8494 and from the seraching Chris did he was in the 17th Manchesters although his card does state SWB as well.  (see attached)

I would like to know what battalion of the SWB he was in and when he transferred to them and maybe why ?
Also as you can see on the medal card its states date of entry 7/9/15 (is that the date of entry to the regiment or France) as the 17th were not in France til after that date

I have seacrhed ancestry for his service/ pension records but to no avail. Sadly he died suddenly in 1919 aged 25 and the other conundrum was that he had a militray funeral at Southern Cemetary so I was wondering if this was a common thing. I have found his obit in the evening news and it does mention the military funeral (hence why I know)

I have also emailed the museum of the SWB and Manchesters and they were unable to help without futher info

I appreaciate there a lot of questions there but any help and guidence would be much appreaciated to point me in teh right direction

many thanks

Steve

Offline kingo

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 10:14:46 AM »
Hiya Steve, and welcome back to the forum. Your relative was certainly an original 17th Bn Man as he is somewhere on the photo (click to enlarge) that was taken sometime early 1915 in Heaton Park where the Pals Battalions did thier initial training. The 17th Battalion transport section left Southampton on the7th November 1915, landing at Le Havre the same day. The Battalion followed the Day after, landing at Le Havre on the 8th/9th. The 7th (Service) Battalion,South Wales Borderers landed at Boulogne on the 6th September 1915-so that would fit in with the date he arrived according to his medal card ?. We need someone with the medal rolls of the 17th Battalion to see if he was awarded his 1914/15 star with the Manchester's or the South Wales Borderers. Hopefully, another forum member will be able to have a look for you.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline kingo

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 11:16:55 AM »
Steve-If i am not mistaken, the medal references on his MIC for the 14/15 Star are to the South Wales Borderers-meaning that that was the unit he first went overseas with-which would tally with the date the 7th SWB arrived in France. He must have then rejoined the 17th Manchester's as the Medal codes for his British War Medal and Victory Medal were issued by the Manchester Regiment. This poses a couple of questions;

Why, when he was an original "Pal" with the 17th Manchester's did he go overseas with the SWB ?
When did he transfer back to the 17th Battalion ?

If it is correct, he must have joined the SWB sometime between January and September 1915-and re-joined the Manchester's after November when they arrived in France. Without his service records it may be impossible to find out the reason why-but other members of the forum may be able to help.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

cartesr

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 11:42:38 AM »
thanks for the advice so far guys much appreciated. His notice in the evening news his family said he was 17th Pals see attached
interestingly they also put the name Billie Williams which I guess was some sort of nickname. Also his browther in law was in the 17th and his brother was in the 18th so Im surprised about the SWB. Ive also ordered his death cert to see if that gives any clues

Offline kingo

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 12:01:33 PM »
Here's a thought, The 7th SWB arrived in Boulogne on the 6th September 1915 and sailed from Marseilles, a good few hundred miles from Boulogne, on the 10th October 1915 for Salonika. If for some reason he was left behind-maybe sickness,or on a course for example-he would have been posted to the Depot in France at Etaples. When the 17th Battalion arrived in France on the 8/9th November, he may have taken the oppurtunity to rejoin his original Battalion where he had friends/relations.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 12:08:00 PM by kingo »
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline mack

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 02:24:19 PM »
the SWB army number doesnt fit in with him joining the SWB in 1915,that number wasnt issued till about late 1917 early 1918

mack ;D

Offline kingo

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 02:32:41 PM »
Cheers Mack-well that blows my theory out of the water  ;D !. How about this one ?. Could SWB actually stand for Silver Wound Badge number 64033 and been mis-read by whoever wrote the cards out ? .Unlikely, I know-but i am clutching at straws here  ;D.
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

Offline mack

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 02:48:19 PM »
Cheers Mack-well that blows my theory out of the water  ;D !. How about this one ?. Could SWB actually stand for Silver Wound Badge number 64033 and been mis-read by whoever wrote the cards out ? .Unlikely, I know-but i am clutching at straws here  ;D.
it was a very good theory andy,but the army number didnt fit

mack ;D

Fritz Bayer

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 03:50:53 PM »
the SWB army number doesnt fit in with him joining the SWB in 1915,that number wasnt issued till about late 1917 early 1918

mack ;D

Mack... judging from other 7/SWB numbers in the 5 digit '640...' range, number 64033 would have been issued to the 7/SWB in late November/early December 1915.

Dave
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 03:53:39 PM by Fritz Bayer »

Offline kingo

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 05:23:45 PM »
If that's the case-it would fit in with my carefully considered theory. I use what I like to call the SWAG method (Scientific wild a*** guess  ;D)
Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.

cartesr

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2010, 08:23:04 AM »
Hi Guys many thanks for giving this some thought and the benefit of your knowledge. I kind of get the feeling I might never get to the answer. Any Ideas on how i might get to check the actual medal rolls and also anybody have any thoughts on the military funeral

again any advice thoughts etc are much appreciated

regards

Steve

Fritz Bayer

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 10:16:17 AM »
The medal rolls are held at the National Archives at Kew and will necessitate either an actual visit in person or getting someone to do it for you (unless someone on here already has them). If you need someone to get them for you, and can't get it done as a 'favour' by someone, then there are a number of researchers who will do it for a broad spectrum of prices...just a case of 'shopping around'.

As for the funeral...there may be a report in a local newspaper other than the one youve already accessed, but, unfortunately, a death at that time may not have been 'big enough news' to warrant a special report. Try the same paper for a few weeks after the event if all else fails.

dave.

Offline harribobs

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2010, 11:40:12 AM »

Mack... judging from other 7/SWB numbers in the 5 digit '640...' range, number 64033 would have been issued to the 7/SWB in late November/early December 1915.

Dave

how did the SWB get to 64000 by Nov 1915??, The Manchester Regiment didn't get to that until 1917
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Fritz Bayer

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 07:59:42 PM »
how did the SWB get to 64000 by Nov 1915??, The Manchester Regiment didn't get to that until 1917

Battalion specific numbering systems for the New Army units don't always follow the rules as set out (originally) in 1881 (usually in order to leave vacant numbers available for potential recruits for the battalions that would still exist after the cessation of hostilities). For that reason , there may be a gap of several thousand numbers that were, at that time , unallocated. It should never be assumed that what happens for one regiment (or even battalion) will be the same for another however!

Dave

cartesr

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Re: Private William Carter 8494 17th
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 01:41:45 PM »
Hi

Again thanks for all your comments, I thought I would do some prep work for a potential visit at some point to Kew and what would be involved, So i searched WO329 via their website of the references on Williams medal card. Both the refs supplied (if you assume that the ref for the Victory medal is 101 and not 107 as I first thought) then both the refs apply to the rolls for the South Wales Borderers

Victory and War Medal J/1/101B20 page 5485  (south wales borderers and other ranks medal rolls)
15 Star  J/1/2C   Is the same as well

So now Im even more confused