Author Topic: bagshaw brothers  (Read 16979 times)

Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2007, 10:37:41 PM »
Oh dear, sorry if you guys are still googly-eyed after the hols!

William (extreme left in group photo on page 2 of this thread) has 1 clearly visible wound stripe, acquired at Fricourt on 1 July 1916.

Horace (standing, detail shown in post 3 above this) was wounded once at least, possibly twice. 
It was on his left sleeve that I thought I saw a chevron, but maybe it's one (or even two) wound stripes?
I also wondered about the trim on Horace's right sleeve, which seems different from those of his brothers. Detail below. [EDITED TO ADD PHOTO]

Ken (seated on right in group pic) is not recorded as having been wounded, though the effects of gassing affected him throughout the rest of his life, apparently.

Angela

« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 10:42:25 PM by angelab »

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2007, 10:07:53 PM »
that's his officer's cuff rank insignia

you can see them on this pic

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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2007, 12:54:22 PM »
So why do the other two brothers not have them?  (Showing my total ignorance here...)

Angela

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2007, 05:16:14 PM »
the uniform changed during the war and the new style showed the officers rank on their epaulettes ;)
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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2007, 12:46:36 PM »
Thanks for that, Harribobs.  I have read up on that subject a bit now!


I also spent the last two afternoons at the National Archives, going through the officers' files for my three Bagshaws.  How amazing it is that all this stuff is kept...

Why would people have had "special leave"?  I notice that both William and Horace were granted this during December 1916.  Would it be for a particular reason (i.e. maybe their mother was v ill, or something), or did it just mean a long enough leave to enable them to return home?

I discovered that all three of them were wounded at different times.
In fact Horace spent a whole lot of time in hospital: roughly Dec 1916 to June 1918 suffering from "sciatica, brought about from cold and exposure in the Field".  He was then back in France from 8 October 1918, "seriously" wounded at Le Cateau on 23 Oct, so on a ship back to England by 26 October. Then in various military hospitals in the UK until Feb 1920! The reports of the Medical Boards said that his elbow wound had meant he could not flex or extend his right forearm: "The elbow joint is held at a right angle".  In fact, looking again at the pic of the boys with their mother (posted earlier in this thread), Horace is the one standing at the back - indeed, with his right arm bent.
A month before it was taken, he was still at Eaton Hall Hospital, Chester.

Can anyone tell me what the 20th Bttn were doing at Le Cateau around 23 October 1918?

Angela

EDIT
I forgot to say that a Medical Board on 1 March 1918 passed Horace as "Fit, Category A" (after the long sciatica episode), and added a note: "The Board recommends that this officer be sent to a warmer climate".  Do you think that was a coded message saying "Back to the Front with him!"  I can't imagine they were contemplating sending him to enjoy the sunshine somewhere...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 01:13:37 PM by angelab »

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2007, 09:49:27 PM »
i'm dubious we'll find out what the special leave was for, obviously it is extra leave above his entitlement ( well my opinion anyway)

we can find out what the 20th where doing on the 23/10/18 quite easily but i won't be able to do it at the minute, the short answer is advancing

to a warmer climate? i would not have thought that was a coded message, more like a comment that he's be able to perform better ( ie without pain) in the med front, sending someone with sciatica back to the trenches................
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2008, 10:39:11 PM »
I am back on the Bagshaw trail again...

I noted from the officer files in the NA that on 21 May 1916 William joined 20th Manchesters in France as "OC Unit". 
Again, on 1 July 1916, he is down as "OC Unit".  Does this mean he would have been in charge of a platoon for the attack at Fricourt?  Or perhaps of a company?  (I am not sure what a "unit" is.) 
I am looking at the disposition map in Michael Stedman's "Fricourt Mametz" book, and can see where A, B, C and D Companies were placed, so was trying to work out exactly where he and his brother Horace would have been in action. (Some interesting info about Horace's actions on 1 July were posted back in #8.)

William was wounded at Fricourt, and sent back to England (lucky him).  Horace had to stick it out till December before being sent home on sick leave.

Many thanks in advance to all you geniuses out there!

Angela

« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 10:43:59 PM by angelab »

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2008, 12:19:40 AM »
i'd guess the unit was a company

horace and lt dixey found themselves at the RECTANGLE without any support ( which was when horace had to go and find some bombers , they worked along to the right of this to the BOIS FRANCAIS SUPPORT

Not sure if this is shown in stedmans book, i'll dig out a map if it isn't
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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2008, 02:39:17 PM »
Hi Harribobs!
Yes, there is a map in Stedman's book that shows both those locations, as well as the positions of A, B, C & D companies. 
With the information on Horace Bagshaw's and Dixey's action, given in post #8, and having learnt from the 1920 book "The Inns of Court OTC during the Great War" that both William and Horace had served in  "K and A Companies", I assumed they would have been in "A Company" for the 1 July attack. (From the map in Stedman's book, its position seems pretty close to The Rectangle. There is no mention of "K Company" on the map.)

William would probably have been a "Temporary Captain" on July 1. At his wedding three weeks earlier he is described as "Captain Bagshaw"; on 17 November 1916 (while still in England after being wounded "at Fricourt"), I noted from the officer file: "Temporary Captain WBB, from a Service Btn, to be Captain (temp) with precedence as from 20 Oct 1915". 
So I am assuming that William was commanding "A Company" on 1 July, which included his brother Lt Horace Bagshaw.
Just wondered if I was safe in that assumption though?

Angela

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2008, 04:47:47 PM »

that may be correct but it would be only a coincidence ;), K & A coys  in the IOC would have been totally different companies to the 20th battn companies

i am afraid someone else will have to advise you on temporary ranks  ;D my understanding was temporary ranks applied to officers who signed up for the duration of the war only, but reading the thread on the GWF i have decided i really don't know anymore ::)
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2008, 05:07:45 PM »
Ah, so the IOC reference is only to companies within the OTC; I get it now...

The officer file at the NA, for William, gave me for March 1915:
"Posted to 20th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. Lieutenant in D Company, commander of 15th Platoon".

He seems to have landed in France in November 1915.

Would William have stayed with D Company throughout his time with the 20th?  I can see (on the disposition map in Stedman's book) that A & B Companies of the 20th Manchesters were definitely heading for The Rectangle; D Company was opposite Bois Francais (immediately SE of A&B position), and C Company was facing the last section before The Quarry.

Maybe I need to get my hands on the battalion diaries.

Angela

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2008, 09:38:33 AM »
would he have stayed with the D coy? in the short term yes, but the armys were suffering horrific casualties, junior officers were at the front of their companies and they suffered the worst ( as in most wars i imagine) so they were sent where they were needed

we have the war diaries ;)
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Offline angelab

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2008, 11:21:08 AM »
Wish I was in Manchester, then!

But I am 10 minutes down the road from Kew, so I expect I could find copies in the National Archives?

Angela

Offline harribobs

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Re: bagshaw brothers
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2008, 11:43:30 AM »
well i am not sure what is happening at the national archives at the moment, there is still disruption there

this is a guide to the war diaries

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=20&j=1

there is also an example there

BUT....you don't actually want the diary, there's not a lot there, you want the report on the battle that's in the diary
“It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."