Corporal Samuel Salthouse - serv No. 29834 East Lancs Regiment

[KSP]

Hi there,  Linda invited me to join your Forum.
I am looking for help finding out further information on Corporal Samuel Salthouse.  Samuel enlisted in the Manchester Regiment under Service Number 36520, he was later transferred to the East Lancs Regiment, 7th Batt. and was given a new service number 29834.
The National Archives give very brief details of a Campaign Medal - Victory Medal, Roll H/1/102B6, page 1428. but no 'Theatre of War' or qualifying dates were entered (although others on the same page had qualifying dates in 1915).
Samuel was born in Oldham but enlisted into the Manchester Regiment in Ashton under Lyne.  He is listed on the Ashton Memorial and also Panel 34, Ypres (Meningate) Memorial.  He was killed in action on 20 July 1917. 
I have been unable to find an obituary for Samuel. Can anyone give me any further info or direction?    Cheers

[regi-mental]

KSP,

Try this link for the Order of Battle (ORBAT) for the 7th (Service) Battalion East Lancs:

http://www.warpath.orbat.com/divs/19_div.htm#56_bde

Andy,

[KSP]

Thanks Andy,

It looks like Samuel's Date of Death was between battles perhaps?

I am afraid I have no idea whether he has a grave. Is it unlikely given that he is listed on the Meningate?

Apologies for my ignorance if the answer is obvious!!

Sara

[harribobs]

Sara

welcome to the group and please don't worry about asking questions, that's what we're here for

Sam has no known grave, it could be that his body was never recovered, or that is was and the location was lost or that he couldn't be identified. when you visit a CWGC cemetery you will see the hundreds of headstones that have only 'known unto god' on them.

The menin gate was built as a memorial to the lost soldiers in the Ypres area ( known as the salient) there is also another memorial to the lost men at Tyne Cot cemetery

the Menin Gate


Tyne Cot



we do have photo's of all the manchester's names on both memorials but as sam was serving with another regiment, i'm afraid it's not in my files

looking at his service number and his medals, he would have been sent abroad ( to france and flanders) after 1915, he would probably have been transferred to the ELs after being wounded or sick

i think we may have someone on the forum who can give you a better idea of what the ELs were doing at the time of his death  (Fritz??)

cheers

chris

PS.. sdgw entry attached (click on it)

[The Colonel]

Hi. Although Samuel Salthouse enlisted at Ashton his service number 36520 does not appear to be a 9th Battalion soldiers number to me ( I could be wrong though!).... any thoughts chaps? Can we work out which battalion of the Manchesters Samuel served in?

I have checked through the Reporter newspapers that I have for Samuel's obituary, (I don't have all that many pages for 1917 at present) and the enlistments that were published, but I have had no luck in finding Samuel.

The Colonel.

[harribobs]

Hi. Although Samuel Salthouse enlisted at Ashton his service number 36520 does not appear to be a 9th Battalion soldiers number to me ( I could be wrong though!).... any thoughts chaps? Can we work out which battalion of the Manchesters Samuel served in?

not by that S/N, that range was used throughout the regiment IIRC, don't forget that Ashton wasn't just the 9th batt HQ it was the regimental depot as well!!

[mack]

i think samuel was living in manchester long before the war began,thats probably why theres no mention of him in the ashton papers,he didnt see service overseas with the manchesters.
manchesters with a service number above 30000,are from the training reserve.
those with a number below 30000,came from the manchesters reserve companies.

the training reserve,was began in 1916.
amongst the men,where soldiers who had previously been wounded/sick,and where under training to bring them back to physical strenghth.
it also contained men who had been called up in 1916 etc.
basically,it was a pool of available manpower,who were sent to reinforce the next regiment who were in need of reinforements.

mack

[The Colonel]

Cheers for the info and insight Chaps.
I have checked the online WW1 papers listed on ancestry.com for Sara, but again ...I had no luck in finding Samuel 

The Colonel.

[KSP]

Hi Guys,

I am confused now.
If the training reserve didn't begin until 1916 does that mean that he didn't enlist until 1916?  Would he then have gone overseas, come back possibly wounded or ill and then re-enlisted into the Lancashire regiment?
The campaign medal I have the copy of details him under the East Lancs Regiment.  Could this medal be retrospective and only apply to the battle in which he died.  Sorry showing my ignorance again.
Mack, what makes you think he was living in Manchester?  His coming of age party was held at his parents house, Manchester Rd, Ashton.  Perhaps they would have held it there even if he was no longer living at home?  He may have even married but I have no knowledge of any marriage and my gran never indicated that he had been married at the time of his death.  Would he have been added to the Ashton Memorial if he didn't live in Ashton?

Cheers

[mack]

hiya sara.
samuel originally enlisted as pte 36520 manchester regt.
he had transferred to the east lancs regt before he left england,and thats the regt he was serving with when he was killed.
his medals were issued to the regt(s) he was serving with overseas.
ww1 medals are only issued to men who served overseas.

i may have the wrong man.
was his parents james+emily
aged 21(C 1914)
one of 10 children

mack

[KSP]

Hi Mack,

You are correct his parents were James and Emily.  His 'Coming of Age' party (presumably aged 21) was in 1915.
There is debate over how many children James and Emily had.  Our Family had been told 13, however the 1901 census indicates 11.  Another story is that two of Samuel's sisters were walking by the canal and one fell in and drowned - more info I am trying to track down!  This would tie in with him being 1 of 10 children at the time he enlisted.

If I have understood you correctly does that mean that Samuel went overseas once, when he died, or twice (campaign medal and when he died)?

Also I would love to find an Obituary.  I would think there would be one as James was apparently quite a well known figure in Ashton, unless of course he joined up against his fathers wishes (all his children were expected to go into the family business).  Do you think it is unlikely that the obituary will have been in the Ashton reporter (there did seem to be a gap in the obituaries detailed on the Ashton Pals site between mid June and December so I wondered if some were missed)?  If so is there a paper that it would have been more likely to appear in and do you know if I can access old copies?

Thanks a lot for all your help

[Wendi]

His 'Coming of Age' party (presumably aged 21) was on 09/02/1915.

Hi Sara

Samuel's birth is registered in Oldham in the first quarter of 1894.

Just as an aside, as you may already be aware of this, his father may possibly have been named after a sibling who died.  The birth and death of a James Whiteside Salthouse in 1855 in the quarter to December.  Followed by another birth recorded in 1857 for the same name.  All three instances are for the Garstang district.

Wendi 

[KSP]

Thanks Wendi,

That information ties in with my assumed DOB for Samuel.  You may well be right about James Whiteside as there is a year gap betweem him and his older brother according to the 1861 census.  Do you mind me asking how you source your info?  Just wondered as I am hitting blanks on several searches and I am new to this. 

Cheers

[mack]

hiya sara.
james had 6/7 people working for him in his grocery business as well as his children,that sounds like a fair sized shop.
is it possible that he had more than one shop.and his sons were managing them.
his kids were born in different areas around tameside+m/c.
6 were born in ashton
1 in dukinfield
2 in oldham
2 in manchester

their residence in 1881,was 125 brighton terrace,hope st,dukinfield.

BTW,this is your uncle wilf
corporal 36521 wilfred salthouse,manchester regt
he was samuels older brother,they enlisted at the same time.

mack

[mack]

hiya sara.
samuel originally enlisted as pte 36520 manchester regt.
he had transferred to the east lancs regt before he left england,and thats the regt he was serving with when he was killed.
his medals were issued to the regt he was serving with overseas.
ww1 medals are only issued to men who served overseas.

i may have the wrong man.
was his parents james+emily
aged 21[C 1914]
one of 10 children

mack

how did the lines get on this post