Corporal in the MANCHESTERS

[swinno]

I wonder if anyone can enlighten me.
Fred SWINNERTON  give details of himself being a CORPORAL in the MANCHESTER Regiment when he married in 1904 and also
in ASHTON 1905 when he registered the birth of his son.
I have found him living in Coleshill Warickshire in the 1901 census, the place of his birth age 19 and working as a Drapers Clerk.

My first question is how long would it normaly take to get to the rank of Corporal. As there dont appear to be any of Fred's Army
records that survived the blitz. How can I confirm if he did in fact serve in the MANCHESTERS?
Just to add to the confusion Fred left England in 1911 and went to Austrailia.  He did enlist in the army there and seved in Galipoli.  But on siginig on he said he had served in the Royal Lancs.

Any ideas how to answer these would be most welcome.
Swinno.

[george.theshed197]

Hi again Swinno,
Hit the wrong key and lost my message. Let's see what I can remember.
Logical approach -1901 census states age 19, draper's clerk, born Coleshill, Warks.
Bmd's show two F. Swinnertons -
1) Fred Swinnerton, Dec qtr 1882, Meriden ( Nr Solihull) 6d : 439 &
2) Frederick Swinnerton Dec qtr 1881, W. Derby (Liverpool) 8b : 409 - so I reckon 1 is your man which means his first porkie was on the 1901 census age 19! He would in fact have only been 17 yrs 6 months max, but still old enough to have joined up for S. Africa.
Being a draper's clerk would mean his educational abilities were numerate and literate enough to work in a shop also implying that his general appearance was clean and tidy. Based on those details he could very well have made Cpl within the time slot of six to twelve months, thus on his return from S. Africa presumably with The Manchester Regiment in that  he went to Ashton where he married Dec qtr 1904.
So far reasonable assumptions - now you have to try to prove it and this is the site where that could become possible. Come on lads and lassies dig into the old grey cells and see what facts you can wrap around these bases.

Good luck, Cheers,
George.

[mack]

hiya swinno.
fred wasnt born in warwickshire,he states that he was born on 27th oct 1882,forest hill,middlesex
staff serjeant 5 fred pilkington swinnerton
1st australian army pay corps
enl 21-9-14
religion,CofE AGNOSTIC
occupation,clerk in the defence dept
resided cross st,guilford,NSW
wife rose,mary,pilkington swinnerton
embarked on HMAT orvieto from melbourne on 21-10-14
disembarked at suez
admitted to the 2nd australian gen hospital,mena house,cairo,on 8-2-15[abscess]discharged 14-2-15
re-admitted 18-2-15[tonsilitis]discharged 24-2-15
embarked at suez for australia,on SS ulysses,disembarked at melbourne,on 15-4-15
discharged as medically unfit[neuresthenia]on 22-3-16
re-enlisted at victoria barracks,on 30-4-17
discharged 21-5-17,services no longer required,at show ground camp,sydney
later addressess,fourth ave,willoughby,NSW
pine st east,follys point,sydney
1920 living at 234 miller st,north sydney
working as a delivery clerk,for a.horden+sons
formerly kings own royal lancaster regt[time expired]

mack

[DaveMurphy]

G'day Swinno,

Judging by your name this feller is a great grandfather..??

I have tracked a couple of helpful documents from the Australian Archives.

Firstly his embarkation, which gives his NOK details: http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM8/5_2_1/PDF/0012.pdf

The WW1 nominal roll which confirms the dates Mack gave, and some other Swinnertons if related. http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/nominal_rolls/first_world_war/page.asp?p=1656146

And finally, and most interestingly, a copy of the Australian National Archives Search page. It appears as though he went on to serve in WW2 in some capacity, as his Service Record is still closed (they have digitsed all of the WW1 records which are freely available). If you are a relation, you can request a copy of the record, and hopefully it will have all of his service annotated. The NAA normally provide an excellent service, cost is $25 Aus. http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=5603081

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Dave

[DaveMurphy]

Was his son Eric Hillary Swinnerton by chance?

Here is the details of a WW2 Service Record for Eric Hillary Swinnerton, Date of birth - 13 May 1920 : Place of birth - NORTH SYDNEY NSW

Date and place of birth tie in with the address that Mack gave for Miller Street, North Sydney.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=4658938

[DaveMurphy]

And the final part......

84 pages of his WWI Service Record!

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/Scripts/Imagine.asp?B=8097517&SE=1&I=1

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Dave

[mack]

great work dave.
i saw the WW2 bit,but i couldnt access the record,their service records are brilliant,and $25 is cheap,worth every cent

mack

[DaveMurphy]

I've had a flick through the records, they are mostly related to his medical pension and discharges etc.

It does mention his time with the KORL.

The WW1 NAA records are brilliant, and the best bit of course is that they are free!

There are war diaries available throught the Australian War Memorial for most units, worthwhile having a look: www.awm.gov.au

[george.theshed197]

Whoops a daisy ,
The only officially registered birth of one Fred Swinnerton in the Oct/Nov/Dec qtr of 1882 according to the CRO 1837 - 1983 is the one to which I made reference in my first response, Dec qtr 1882, Meriden,. 6d : 430.
'Meriden is a village and civil parish  in the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull , West Midlands. Located between Solihull and Coventry about 10 Km (6 miles) from Birmingham International Airport. Wikepedia.' Some considerable distance from Forest Hill, Middlesex I might add, why go all that distance to register the birth ??
This is one of the problems of accepting documents containing information given personally as being factual as opposed to the official registration details. Which do you believe??
Will follow this enquiry with interest.
Cheers,
George  

[swinno]

Wow Guys,

Thats what I call a result, some good information in there, Thanks for your efforts.
It was the first Frederick  Swinnerton who was born in Coleshill / Meriden Warickshire 27 Oct 1882.
The other Frederick born 1881 in Liverpool is from another family. I already know of this one.
Why Fred gave his place of birth as London, I dont know.
Fred did not go to S Africa as no Swinnerton's show up as seved there.  This was established on this site a few days ago.
So the plot thickens did he serve in the MANCHESTERS the ROYAL LANCS or both?

Thanks
Swinno.

[swinno]

Hello There,

After reading the wealth of information that has been presented to me by the
kind people of this site.  There are still a few questions, and I wonder if anyone can answer them.

Fred SWINNERTON'S Australian Army records state that his previous service in the Kings Own Lancs Regiment  was
as UNATTATCHED INDIA.  What does this mean? I have read up on the web, but I am still not clear.

Also a lot of the WW1 records were destroyed in the Blitz of WW2.  Would this also include pre WW1?

Thanks
Swinno.