44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R

[1954gladiator]

Hi tonyrod

Hope this reply to mack helps you out?

Hi mack

Luke Vince (13th Manchesters) of 18 Ariele St, Salford isn't a relative - as far as I know!  Can you send me his medal card for the Museum?

From what you have sent me & from what we have discussed so far I would think his brother was definitely Alphonse Vince (12th Manchesters)  - last known at 25 James Henry St, Salford.  Also not a relative as far as I know!  I have his medal card alongside Alfonso's - also for the Museum.

If these 2 Vinces were brothers (with parents Frank & Margaret & another brother, Felix, all resident at 26 Harry St, Ordsall) the Museum of Manchester Regiment will probably want to know more or even set wheels in motion to find out what themselves. 

For example did Felix enter WW1 in a Manchester Regiment?  Do you know & if so can you find & send his medal card to me for the Museum please.

I will definitely go these 3 locations when next in Manchester & will let you know what I find out.  Perhaps we are related so wouldn't that be amazing!!  If more of interest will involve the Salford Forum as you suggest either through me or the Museum.

Through research of my grandad I have contact now with a cousin Tim Vince.  We plan to meet up soon.   Alfonso Vince (my grandfathers elder brother)was his grandfather.     

   

[tonyrod]

cheers its sorted, its with jumping from thread  to thread, and the age thingie 
look forward to seeing it all to gether on your wall. tonyrod

[harribobs]

i would say that is a royal fusiliers badge, it's certainly possible he was in one of their training battalions before being posted to the manchesters, and looking at that photo i would have thought it was an early one

[1954gladiator]

Hi harribobs

I have now established that the cap badge almost certainly belongs to The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) - Kings Crown Brass.  At the start of WW1 my grandfather was a Tailor in Saville Row so it is highly probable that he joined this regiment as he was working in the City. 

Any chance with your connections that you can find & post an image of this badge please?  I have found one but because of copyright on the image I may not be given permission to post.

[tonyrod]

enjoy

[1954gladiator]

hi tonyrod

Thanks for cap badge image. Is it a modern badge for this regiment?

The reason I ask is that if you take a look at the one I've seen on www.arbeia.demon.co.uk (# 50090-A) it looks more old fashioned than this one.  Am trying to get permission to use this image which is subject to copyright. 

[tonyrod]

i am no expert on badges but from the copy i copied its 1914-20,  as for copyright i can not say for certain  but i don't think copyright  is a problem providing its not for personnel gain,   

[1954gladiator]

Thanks tonyrod.

If I can't get the image that has 'copyright all over it' & is not available for down load I will buy the actual badge!  Then it can be photographed & given to the Museum along with the actual photo post card. 

[1954gladiator]

Hi themonstar

You kindly advised my grandfathers Battalion as the 20th & that he went overseas anytime after Jan 1916.  I looked the 20th up on the site & there is no mention of them being at the Somme in 1916.  The 22nd were there & in Italy in 1917.  Is more likely that he was in the 22nd as he did speak of fighting at the Somme & he did finish his war service in Italy in 1917?

As we have a fair indication of his Battalion (1 of 2) are there any other records in existance that will find my grandfather listed in a regiment for certain in 1916 & do you have any links/suggestions for me to investigate please?  Thanks. 

[Devil Wood]

Re the 20th M/c's. Sugest you obtain a copy of Michael Stedman, "Manchester Pals" where the history of the 20th is registered. Should be available at your local Library. On the first day of the Somme the 20th lost their CO killed, 4 captains killed, 6 subalterns killed, 6 other officers casualties, 110 men killed, 29 missing, 171 wounded.
Good luck
Barney

[1954gladiator]

Hi Barney

Thanks for all the info from you 'down under'.  Had wonderful time in SE. Australia & Tasmania a couple of years ago but didn't get to NSW. 

Will certainly get the book you suggest but meanwhile I found a piece on the web.  Battle of the Somme - the capture of Fricourt, 1st July 1916.  From this I can see that the 20th Battalion, Manchester Regiment (also known as the 5th City Pals) suffered the casualties as you have stated.  See www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk/battle_report.php?name=01_07_16_ Manchester20

What is interesting to me is that the Battalion was obviously made up from a lot of men from the Stockport area.  I have no idea how my grandfather came to be in the Manchester Regiment & this Battalion when he came from a small village in rural Suffolk, worked in London's Saville Row circa 1914 & started his war service as a Royal Fusilier (City of London Regiment) - see his photo postcard with cap badge on the Forum.  Is there someone out there with this knowledge or a theory?  Could he have been promoted to A-CPL in the Royal Fusiliers & then been transfered to the Manchesters at his request or on someone elses?  From his medal card it would appear the became a 'Manchester' before going over seas in 1916.
 

[1954gladiator]

H harribobs

Proof Stanley was a Royal Fusilier before becoming a Manchester!

From THE CHIEF CLERK CITY OF LONDON HQ RRF to me

Hello
Yes - the early picture of your grandad in uniform does show that his cap badge is that of the Royal Fusiliers (The City of London Regiment).
We do not hold individual soldiers documents here.
Those that have survived are held at the National Archives, Kew. They are aslo available online at Ancestry.co.uk (for a fee).
Yours
J Kelleher
Chief Clerk

[Devil Wood]

Hey GBB
YOUR IN THE ARMY NOW, you don't transfer, you get transferred.
My interest in the 20th is that my grandad and a few other blokes in the 21st relieved them in the line south of Delville Wood 29th AUGUST 1916 the day my grandad went down.
Barney.

[mack]

a great deal of men who had been wounded or sick,were sent to the training reserve after recovering,they belonged to a multitude of different regiments+units.
your grandfathers number,is in a block of numbers,that were for the manchester regiment,many of these men,arrived at the infantry brigade depot,at etaples after the 1st july 1916,to bring the manchester battalions back up to strenghth.
they would not have been posted to a specific battalion,till they arrived in france.
his service record,is the only thing that can answer your question.

mack

[mack]

your grandfather,was in this batch of reinforcements
44500 stanley nichols
44502 walter,j johnson
44505 alfred hack
44506 levi sherratt
44507 harry,j,j whitehead
44508 james,r wheeler
44509 george,s pearce
44510 STANLEY VINCE
44511 percy north
44512 patrick,joseph murphy
44513 john,e stageman
44514 hugh,frederick eva
44516 harold,frederick castle
44517 john cregg
some of these men,came from the royal fusiliers depot,they were mostly london lads.
they were posted to the 24th infantry brigade at etaples,on 29-6-16,then on 9th july 1916,they were attatched to the 20th manchesters,and joined the battalion,in the field,on 25th oct 1916.

mack