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Hello from new member researching Grandfather in 16th Manchesters

Started by ahowen, January 09, 2009, 05:24:28 PM

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ahowen

I am researching my Grandfather's war history, Alan Howard Owen No 7036.  He joined the 1st Manchesters in Aug 1914 and I have Tuson photos of him in "C" Company, although his French dictionary taken with him in 1915 states D Co.  I think he may have been in Cptn Elstob's Co.  Is this possible?

I have 1 or 2 original photos and a few names which I would be willing to share. 

Any information gratefully received, thank you.

tonyrod

hi ahowen,and welcome to the forum  i am the new boy and know very little but to get you started,

Description Medal card of Owen, Alan H
Corps Regiment No Rank
Manchester Regiment 7036 Private
Royal Army Medical Corps 144531 Private

Date 1914-1920
Catalogue reference WO 372/15 
                                                     tonyrod

 

timberman

Hi ahowen
Welcome to the forum.
Your Grandfather is listed as an original pal in D co. of the 16th Bn.
He was missing from the original photo of the platoon no XIII
But was present when the supplementary photo was taken.
So he is on this photo somewhere ??? I'm afraid it does not go as far as identifying individual soldiers.

Timberman

Click on the photo for bigger.

timberman

Hi ahowen
Bit more info. The following is copied from the Roll of Honour web site.

On 21st March 1918 Captain Ashe was commanding "A" Company in the right front line, "B" was on the left with "C" in support. Battalion HQ and "D" Company were at the Manchester Hill Redoubt.
Copyright © Roll-of-Honour

So it depends on which Co he was in as to where he was at the Battle of Manchester Hill, ("C" or "D")

Timberman

DaveMurphy

G'day Ahowen,

Elstob's rough movements through the Battalion were:

1915  2nd Lieut & A/Capt ~ 2IC A Coy
March - July 1916 Capt ~ CO D Coy
July - October 1916  Maj ~ 2IC Battalion
October 1916 - March 1918 LtCol ~ CO Battalion

Elstob was CO D Coy during the battles for Montauban (1 July) and Trones Wood (8-10 July).

Welcome to the forum!  ;D

Cheers,

Dave


DaveMurphy

Ahowen,

You may have seen elsewhere on the forum that I am compiling a database of the Officers and Men of the 16th Battalion (also known as 1st City). My Great Grandfather was the Battalion Quartermaster.

I would love to see the photographs and any other information you may have about your Grandfather and his time with the 16th. Do you know when he left the Battalion for the RAMC?

We collectively have a fair bit of information about the 16th Batt, including War Diaries etc, so should be able answer most questions you have.  :)

Cheers,

Dave

ahowen

Hello tonyrod, timberman and dave murphy:  very many thanks for the information and photo posted.  I have now looked through my late mother's papers and have found quite a bit on my grandfather (Alan Howard Owen, 1890 - 1976) incl an original copy of a letter dated 25 December 1918 to his uncle in America describing his experiences of the War from signing up in Aug 1914, (one of the first to do so, in the 1st City Pals), arrival in Hebuterne France Aut 1915, injury while at Frise in early 1916, going over the top at Montauban (he was one of the first soldiers in the village after the departure of the Germans), Trones Wood, Guillemont and then being sent back to Blighty due to his injury.  Here he became  a Physical and Bayonet Fighting Instructor until he dislocated his knee at the HQ gym at Aldershot.  He was then transferred to the RAMC, where he still was at the time of writing to his uncle, hoping for demob.

I think this letter, even though a copy (made by him), is an important document and should probably be - where?  The National Archive?

I also have several photographs mostly of platoon pals, with some descriptions written by him on the back.  I can give you some names of his pals for your database, Dave, if you wish.  If anyone wants to see these photos, I will need simple instructions on how to get these onto this tinternet thing.

He was an amazing man, very sporty, played rugby from an early age until his forties, was a founder member of at least 2 golf clubs, incl Birkdale, played golf until he was 82, still ran a little every day until his death at 86.  He was a cricket fanatic, a life member and regular attender at Old Trafford, and followed the England team round the world during the 1950's and 60's.  I think he might have been an official scorer at one MCC match.  He worked for Cryselco (lighting co) in Manchester and gave a paper at an international conference in Canada in 1949 (think the date is correct), flying there when airline travel was not common.  He was a very gentle person with a great sense of humour and he must have found the atrocious conditions in the trenches a great shock.  He certainly found his experiences at Trones Wood and Guillemont more than harrowing.  He never spoke to us about any of this and told us that his blind eye had been caused by walking into a branch of a tree when he was young. 

I have a newaspaper cutting from the Manchester Guardian dated Monday March 8 1915, showing a photograph taken during a rugby match, my grandfather just having thrown in at a line-out.  The headline:  "Football in war-time:  a military rugby union match in manchester".  Caption to photo:  "A photograph which illustrates an incident in the kind of football to which there can be no war-time objections.  It shows a "line-out" in the military football match played between the 16th Service Battalion of the Manchester Regiment and the Manchester OTC at the Firs Fallowfield, on Saturday afternoon".

Re the injury:   in his letter, he says:  "During the Frieze [sic] attack I was out wiring one night and being only a few yards from Fritz he of course heard us and sent over a few "whiz-bangs" (light shells worked by an electric gun).  I was struck in the right eye with either a piece of shell, or barb wire.  There was no pain at all, just a feeling of something in the eye, so I didn't trouble much.  In three days or so I found I was completely blind, but even so I couldn't get back home.  The doctor evidently acting on War Office instructions and keeping as many men out as possible, simply because the Asquith Government hadn't the pluck to bring in conscription.
            "My Captain (one Elstob, late Colonel who met such a gallant end........)......said he wouldn't have a man with one eye on sentry in the front line so he made me into a runner, which was "cushy" in trench warfare, but hot during an attack." 

He goes on to say that on 1 July, he should have been at Brigade HQ with Captn Taylor (this is Arthur Taylor, Manchester Alderman, and I think must be the Arthur Taylor in the photo on p 28 of M Stedman's book: Manchester Pals?) as his runner, but he wanted to be with his pals as they went over the top and made his way there.  He thought he would be in trouble with his captn later, but writes: " he [Captn Taylor] was as proud as punch and so was I.  Last Christmas he sent me a huge ham and enclosed his card on which he had written, "To my orderly who captured Montauban July 1 1916." 

I have that card, together with a photgraph of Arthur Taylor kept by my Grandfather. 

Sorry this is so long, but thought it might be of interest to whoever out there.

If anyone wants any more info/quotes from my Grandfather's letter, please say.

Forum people:  please feel free to move this post if of any interest to others who might not look under my post of Looking for....




mack

this is excellent stuff,keep it coming,put as much as you want on here.

does your grandfather mention anyone else,in his letters,we may be able to help you with some background info.

mack ;D

DaveMurphy

It's always far more interesting IMHO to read accoutns which were written by the men themselves, rather than reading 'about' them in a history. THs is very interesting stuff, and would love to know any more you have. The pics would be great to see as well. I am about to sign off for tonight, but if you wish to post the photo's, its probably easiest to send them to Harribobs (address via PM) if you can't get them up yourself.

Thanks for all the stuff so far!

Cheers,

Dave

ahowen

Dave:  my grandfather's letter is too long to print out here verbatim.  I will put up extracts under other threads so they don't get lost in this one.  Very sorry but I have no idea how to send photos to here or anywhere else via the tinternet.  What is "send to Harribobs via PM"?  May be able to ask someone to show me how to do this but cld take a while. 

There are not that many photos, but some may be of interest: putting up the tents at Heaton Park; showing off a few rifles (to the Press?) probably at Heaton Park; on parade after a training run in the pouring rain, Heaton Park; 1st City Battalion Manchester Regtm D Co, a Tuson photo outside Heaton Hall; the 16th Service Battn rugby team, probably 1915; a group of people outside a hut (could be a Tuson photo? At Heaton Park or Grantham or elsewhere??); a platoon photo  (D Co, not sure which platoon) outside a tin hut sent to my grandfather's mother on the evening before his departure to France from Amesbury; a few small photos of various peiople, but incl one taken inside what looks like a dug-out; a group photo: "Physical & Bayonet Training, Boxing etc at Head Quarter Gymnasium Aldershot - November 1917"; and another group photo, showing various people outside a substantial brick building, the officer having  a bulldog at his feet.  There are also also 2 photos of my grandfather in uniform.

Will look out names for you and send these another time. 

ahowen

harribobs

Quote from: ahowen on January 21, 2009, 07:12:39 PM
Dave:  my grandfather's letter is too long to print out here verbatim. 
ahowen

hi ahowen

we can post the full letter and the photos on the main site, if you would like, we could post it as a separate web page and link it into the battalion history

you can either email me or use the private message (PM)  by clicking the icons under my name, or anyone else's on the left of the message boxes



cheers

chris



"It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply
  to serve as a warning to others."

ahowen

Chris:  would be good idea to put this letter + photos on main website so they are available for all to see.  I think they are important historical docts involving someone who was there.  Our links to these people will soon be gone and it's important for future researchers that we record what there is.  However, you'll have to point me in the direction of simple instructions for getting this stuff to you via the interweb, or it won't happen!  Some of the postcards were sent to my grandfather's mother and have writing on the back.  I think these should come too.

aho

tisgrannie

Hello I am following your topic, what a generous offer. It is as you say, this will be very valuable resource. Personal records and great ones at that. Thank you so much.
regards
tisgrannie

ahowen

tisgrannie:  thank you.  Am hoping to find out this wkend how to get stuff onto the tinterweb.

aho

DaveMurphy

G'day Ahowen,

I have sent you a message to help get the pics onto the forum. Click up the top of the page where it says "My Messages" to see it.

Cheers,

Dave