Francis Redfern

[Tigger18]

Hello All
Can anyone please help me, I have hit a brick wall regarding my Great Grandfather Francis Redfern(Service No 69915) .  This is what I know, he served during WW1 army and believe elisted in the Manchester Regiment maybe the 7th, later served in the  "G" Battalion Tank
Killed 17th November 1917.
I also believe he served in the Boer War as well.  He lived in Warrington (Barbar) married with 4 children, however my grandmother (deceased)was only child to have children and there my information stops.  I have tried many hours of rereserch when I came accross this forum and maybe someone out there could help me.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Pam

[tisgrannie]

Hello and Welcome, this what is listed on CWGC.
Name: REDFERN
Initials: F
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Tank Corps
Unit Text: "G" Bn.
Date of Death: 20/11/1917
Service No: 69915
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: II. D. 19.
Cemetery: METZ-EN-COUTURE COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRITISH EXTENSION

[tisgrannie]

This the cemetery info for you. I am not sure about him being in the manchesters but I am sure one of our experts will be along shortly.
Kind regards
tisgrannie



Cemetery: METZ-EN-COUTURE COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRITISH EXTENSION
Country: France
Locality: unspecified
Visiting Information: Wheelchair access to this cemetery with some difficulty. For further information regarding wheelchair access, please contact our Enquiries Section on telephone number 01628 507200.
Location Information: Metz-en-Couture is a village situated in the extreme south-eastern corner of the Department of the Pas-de-Calais. The British Extension is next to the Communal Cemetery and lies adjacent to the D29B, 2 kilometres east of the village travelling in the direction of Gouzeaucourt.
Historical Information: The village was captured by the 10th and 11th King's Royal Rifle Corps on the 4th and 5th April, 1917, evacuated on the 23rd March, 1918, and retaken by the 1st Otago Regiment on the following 6th September. It was noted for its extensive system of underground cellars. It was later "adopted" by the County Borough of Halifax. The Communal Cemetery was used by the enemy for the burial of German soldiers and also of three R.F.C. Officers, whose graves have now been removed to the British Extension. On the East side of it a German Extension was made containing the graves of 252 German soldiers and one man of the Chinese Labour Corps; the German graves have now been removed to other cemeteries and the Chinese grave to the British Extension. The British Extension was begun in April, 1917, and used until March, 1918, and two graves were added in the following September. These original burials, made by Field Ambulances and fighting units, are in Plots I and II; Plots III and IV were added after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the immediate neighbourhood. There are now nearly 500, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, almost 50 are unidentified and special memorials are erected in the cemetery recording the names of four soldiers from the United Kingdom, buried in Metz-en-Couture British Cemetery No. 2, whose graves could not be found on concentration. The cemetery covers an area of 2,212 square metres and is enclosed on three sides by a rubble wall. METZ-EN-COUTURE BRITISH CEMETERY No. 2 was on the West side of the village, a little South of the road to Ruyaulcourt. It contained the graves of 35 soldiers from the United Kingdom, mainly of the 58th (London) and 47th (London) Divisions, who fell in 1917 and 1918.
No. of Identified Casualties: 431

[tisgrannie]

This Francis' Medal Card. There is no reference to the manchesters but someone else will let you know I am sure.
regards
tisgrannie

[harribobs]

here is Francis's entry in SDGW and the manchester reference (click for bigger)

chris

[tisgrannie]

Hi Gang, I can't find Francis Redfern's medal card for the Manchesters. has anyone got the list with him on as I have none with me. I find it frustrating not being able to find anything. 39082 is his number with MR.
tis

[harribobs]

he hasn't got one Tis, his entitlement was recorded with the tank corp

[tisgrannie]

Thanks very much harribob.
tis

[Tigger18]

Hi Everyone
Thank you very much for getting back to my question so fast you are all very good in trying for me.  I was told years ago that he elisted in the Manchester Regiment which must had been wrong if he cannot be found.  Well that means back to the drawing board for me, would anyone know if there were any other areas he could had joined up as he lived in Warrington, I know it could be a long shot.
I am not able to look up records (live in Brisbane Australia) and not having a credit card cannot buy credits for most of the available internet research areas.
So I would be very greatful if some out there could give me a lead in the right direction.

Thanks
Pam

[tisgrannie]

Hi Pam, according to harribob his medal entitlement came from the Tank Corp.
I am a bit thick about these bits. He was in the Manchesters as it states on the SDGW listing.
Keep the faith. I will see what else I can fnd out for you Ok
tisgrannie

[Wendi]

Hi Pam and a Warm Welcome to our Forum !

Francis enlisted with the Manchester Regiment, and was transferred to the Tank Corps prior to rendering service which entitled him to the medals, although as SDGW proves he was formally with them.

The question would be what date the 39082 number relates 

Wendi 

[harribobs]

The question would be what date the 39082 number relates 

Wendi 

hmmmm

well, difficult to say cos we haven't got this down to a fine art, we are probably talking about an enlistment in 1915, the first tanks were used at the somme in 1916, the first time they were used en masse was in 1917

i would suspect he'd done his training, probably in machine guns and got himself transfered to the tank corp around that time and shipped out 1917

chris

[Tony1/612742]

Yes Chris, The Tank Corps was formed from the Heavy Branch MGC on 27 July 1917. Before that from March 1916 it was the experimental Heavy Section MGC (based at Bisley). But the Top Brass were itching to get going with the new weapons and rushed into using them. 36 Mark 1 tanks of C and D Companies HSMGC arrived on the start line for the renewal of the Somme offensive: this action was later designated as the Battle of Flers-Courcelette (the first ever Tank action). Considering Fransis was only actually in the Tank Corps for a couple of months before his death he propably never actually wore a Tank Cap Badge.

Is it sad that someone come up  with the idea of changing such a small detail (and the mass of paperwork that goes with it) from "section" to "branch" whilst so many men were being killed ?

Fransis died of wounds on 20/11/17 I bet from a CCS field ambulence  (Tigger DOW 17th Nove 17??? where did you get that?) . Heres what happened on that day from the Long Trail web site:

"On 20 November 1917, Byng's Third Army launched a limited and tactically radical attack at Cambrai, where ground conditions were far more favourable than any seen to date. Folliwng a surprise, hurricane artillery bombardment 378 Mark IV tanks smashed through the Hindenburg Line positions, temporarily creating a rupture to the German lines and the chance for a breakthrough. Insufficient mobile reserves could get through in time to exploit the tanks success, and within days the chance had gone. However, Cambrai proved to be a key learning experience for the British command."

So Fransis fell on the first day of Cambrai. He would have been a Gunner not a Driver as these were from the ASC. I bet he would have joined from a Manchester Training Battalion in 1916 and joined the HBMGC in 1916. He would not have served overseas before that as his medals were to the Tank Corps. T

[CPMartin]

Can anyone tell me how to contact Pam, who was enquiring about her Great Grandfather Francis Redfern ? I have information that would be helpful to her.
Many thanks,
Martin

[charlie]

Hello Martin,
Pam hasn‘t been on the forum since 2008. You could try sending her an email by clicking on the envelope under her name. There is no way of telling if her email address is still valid.

Charlie