9th Manchester Volunteers service record help

[quovandius]

My great grandfather John Bertenshaw enlisted into the Manchester Regiment in January 1915. His army service record seems unavailable but his airmans record (he joined the RFC in 1917 no 108975) mentions previous service in the 9th Manchester Volunteers. Am I right in thinking this is pre ww1 and if so, are there any records available?

By June 1915 he was posted to France with the Loyal North Lancs (no 22007) possibly 1st battalion as they received a draft from the Manchester regt around then. His pension record has a random service no. (23401) Amongst his other numbers so I'm assuming that is his army number when in the Manchesters as he didn't join any other regiments during his service. From looking online this looks like possibly he was in the 11th, 12th, 13th or 14th service battalion.

Any help appreciated
Mark

[quovandius]

See scans

[quovandius]

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[Tim Bell]

 Hi Quo,
Welcome to the Forum.  You're our first new member for quite a while - we had a problem with hacking.

I think the reference to 9th Volunteer Bn refers to pre-War service.  9th (Territorial) Bn was based in Ashton (near John's home in Denton) and was previously 3rd Volunteer Bn until 1908. 

If John went overseas with the Loyals on 29/06/1915, it is pressing logic that he had enlisted with them on 20/01/1915.  Transfers in the infantry were common in 1916 onwards but less so in 1914/15.

Cheers
Tim

[quovandius]

Many thanks for your reply Tim. Thanks for confirming what I already thinking about John's pre war service in the Manchesters.

In regards to his WW1 service, if he did originally enlist in the Loyals and not the Manchesters, there is still the question of the random 23401 no. On his pension card. The photo we have of him I think shows a Manchesters cap badge and the "utility" service dress which was issued late 1914 onwards from what I've seen but I'm happy to be corrected on this as WW2 is more my area of expertise and maybe it is a prewar photo? Not disagreeing with your input but just trying to make sense of everything!

Cheers

[Tim Bell]

Hi Quo,

I take your point. The men in the photo are quite old too and I doubt John could've looked this old before 1914.  I just wonder if he had home service with the Manchesters after the Loyals and before the RFC.  The 23xxx sequence were issued in mid 1916, so it's possible he was wounded / sick in France, posted home an then transferred to a service Bn.  The other older men in the image would fit with Derby Scheme recruits in mid 1916.  Guess work, maybe.
Tim

[PJS]

I know I'm a bit late with this but here is my opinion for whatever it's worth ...

If you look very closely at the RFC Service Record, Section 4 Prior Engagement in HM Forces, it appears to be:

9th Manchester    )
Volunteer         )

Which implies to me that he originally served with the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Manchester Regiment and then transitioned to the 9th Battalion, Manchester Regiment, Territorial Force in April 1908. Surviving service records from the 9th Battalion indicate that most (but not all) re-enlistments into the Territorial Force were for 4 years and so he would perhaps have time expired in 1912 and left the battalion around that time. If that is true then the photograph - which looks to me to have been taken at one of the battalion's annual Summer camps - would be explained. He would have been 38 in 1912 so hopefully he is one of the blokes standing at either side of the back row.

Moving on to his WW1 service, he appears to have indeed been serving with the 1st Battalion Loyal North Lancs Regiment because there is a Reporter newspaper article ("Footballs for Soldiers", May 20, 1916) that references him as a recipient of a football and indicates that he previously played for, or was associated with, Denton FC (his name is at the very bottom of the article).

So the summary is that prior to the war he served with the 3rd Volunteers and the the 9th Battalion Manchester Regiment, TF leaving a few years before the outbreak of war but not before having his photo taken at summer camp with his mates. In January 1915 he joined the 1st battalion LNLR and served in France from June 1915 and was attached to HQ (probably due to his age and prior military experience). We can still place him in France with the 1st LNLR in May 1916. For some reason he transferred to the RFC a year later in August 1917 and again served in France with the 3rd Balloon Wing (3BW). He was severely wounded in the neck in September 1918 and repatriated to the UK where he recovered and was eventually discharged to a disability pension in 1919.

One last comment. There are lots of spurious numbers on pension ledger records and so the 23401 number may or may not be a service number. The only thing for sure is that it is not a reference to any pre-war service numbers with the Manchester Regiment.

Peter

[quovandius]

Apologies for the late reply Peter. Many thanks for your input and the attached article confirming John's 1LNL service. I never had any interest in football but might have to start looking into Denton FC now!

all the best
Mark