Author Topic: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help  (Read 2646 times)

Offline LillieReeRose12

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2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« on: November 18, 2022, 10:02:18 AM »

Hello all, I’m a new member looking for help, input or insight into my Great Grandfather’s army career. Any information however small would be of great benefit indeed to help me piece things together.

My Great Grandfather was in the 2nd Manchesters, regiment number 580 and was a Sergeant at the start of WW1.

Although on the Service Medal and Award Roll his first regiment appears to be the 3rd Manchesters where his service number was also 580.

From my research I found the following information regarding his ranks:

In 1908 he was a lance Corporal (rank on his son’s birth certificate)

In 1911 he was a Corporal (rank on the 1911 Census of Ireland)

In 1914 his rank was Sergeant on his medals and Award Roll

In 1917 his rank was Sergeant in an Army Medical Admission Book

In 1921 the Census shows him with an occupation that wasn’t Army based.

In an Army Medical Admission book in October 1914 it records his completed years of service as 9, which leads me to believe he joined the army around 1905, when he was around 18.

My first question that I would love some help with is how long did a recruit join up for in 1905? I had read it was 9 years, but is this correct?

We have no idea when he actually joined or left the Army.

My second question would be where is it likely he joined up? The family was living in Salford, in Pendleton in 1901.

My third question is where would he have been based with the 3rd Manchesters?

I know with the 2nd Battalion he was in Mullingar in 1911 and then based in Curragh in 1914 and left for France on the 15.8.14. But I do not know his whereabouts before this.

My last question is regarding marriage in the Army. Were soldiers in 1908 allowed to marry freely or were there any certain requirements?

I read that you needed permission from a superior officer, is this correct?

I cannot find a marriage record for my Great Grandfather although on many documents including birth, baptism and census records he is recorded as married and it gives a marriage date of around 1907/8.

What I found strange is that he is recorded on the 1911 Census of Ireland as living with his wife and two small children, one who was two years old and the other just one month old, in a room of a cottage (I assume he is renting) with a non military Irish family and not in the Mullingar Barracks which is close by, where records show other soldiers with families living.

If you can provide any answers to my questions or any information about the topics above I would be grateful. Look forward to hearing from you.

Offline Timberman

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2022, 03:07:55 PM »

 Hi Lillie
 Have you got your Great Grandfather’s name.
 Welcome to the forum.
 Timberman

Offline LillieReeRose12

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2022, 03:10:33 PM »
Hi Timberman, thank you so much 😊

Of course, it was William Day.


Offline Tim Bell

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2022, 12:13:52 PM »
Hi Lillie,
I can assist a little but I don't have access to the FWR admissions records and we can't find the service record . I'd be interested to hear which Bn is noted on the admissions in 1914 & 17.
Following your questions
1. The regimental number sequence indicates William enlisted in very late 1905 or early 1906.  See https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/manchester-regiment-regular-special.html  The period of service changed at some point, that I don't know, from 9 + 3 on reserve to 7 + 5.  I'd guess the former because a Sgt disembarking on 15/08/1914 was very likely to have been serving at the Curragh when the Bn was mobilised.  It's also possible William had extended his original service or (I doubt) mobilised from Reserve. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/
2. Most recruitment was at the Regimental Depot at Ashton.
3. William was part of the original 2nd Manchesters which joined the BEF in August 1914.  At some stage he was posted to 3rd (Special Reserve) Bn, which was based at Cleethorpes.  This was a training unit responsible for the Humber Defences.  Many wounded men were posted there to prepare for a return to the front, alongside new recruits and home based NCOs and men who were not fit for overseas duty. The Bn notation on FWR may provide a guide on the date of this posting.  He was probably demobilised in spring 1919, or earlier. As he didn't evidently receive a pension, it was unlikely to have been earlier.  He had completed his contracted period of service but the deemed to have continued under conscription laws.
4. Other Ranks required consent to be married.  I just wonder if he was overseas at the time but I can't find any.  What was his wife's name? I don't know enough about family housing to comment.

To find a bit more context see
http://www.themanchesters.org/2nd%20batt.htm
https://manchester-regiment.org.uk/index.php
and the 2nd Bn War Diary which can be downloaded for free from Naitional Archives.

Welcome to the forum
Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline LillieReeRose12

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2022, 11:20:00 AM »
Good morning Tim,

Wow, thank you so much, this is absolutely fantastic, it pieces a few more bits together for me. That’s so kind of you.

I will have a good read through those articles.

In answer to your questions. His wife was called Maria Helene Day, nee Bailey. Although sometimes referred to as Ellen Maria, born around 1889 and interestingly in Guernsey. I haven’t researched her much so don’t know a great deal about her. I had read that the 2nd Batt. or maybe the 3rd were stationed in Guernsey, but unsure on the date or whether William Day (also known as Francis William Day) was there. Their first child was born in Salford in 1908 so I’m guessing a marriage prior to this? Maybe they met and married in Guernsey if he was stationed there?

Everything I can find on William Day records him as being in the 2nd. Battalion, his son’s birth certificate in 1908, the army hospital admissions in 1914 (A company) and 1917 (C company), his 1914 Star Medal, the only time I have seen the 3rd Batt. mentioned in on his British War Medal and Victory Medal record, it reads:

2nd Manch. Regt.
580        Sgt.
3rd Manch. Regt.
580

I am unsure what this means.

I do have a photograph of him, unsure when or where it was taken but he has three chevrons on his sleeve. There are also two medals from WWII the Defence and the 1939-1945 War Medal. I know absolutely nothing about him serving during this period.

Hope that information has helped, if not just let me know. Thanks so much.
 

Offline Tim Bell

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2022, 04:30:46 PM »
Hi Lillie,
Please can you tell us what cause of hospitilisation is noted in 1914 & 17.  3rd (Special Reserve) Bn was home based. Not in Gurnsey pre-War or France & Belgium 1914-18.  Home service isn't usually specified on Medal Rolls but the notation suggests William completed his service with 3rd Bn at Cleethorpes, after the 1917 hospital admission.
The photo would be good to see.
Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Timberman

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2022, 05:56:32 PM »
 Hi Lillie

 Sorry not to have reply before.

 Your Great Grandfather would of been in the 2nd Battalion all the time and as Tim says until he was wounded
 in 1917 and sent to the 3rd Battalion until he was well enough to return to the 2nd Battalion. He finished the
 war with the 3rd Bn whether he was unfit to return 2nd Bn or the war ended before he could return. 
 With regards to Ellen Maria being born in Guernsey.
 After the the 2nd Bn returned from South Africa in September 1902 they were quartered at Aldershot,
 remaining there for two years. After this they were sent to Guernsey and Alderney.
 This is were he met his future wife.
 
 
 
 Timberman

 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 05:45:23 PM by Timberman »

Offline LillieReeRose12

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Re: 2nd and 3rd Battalion help
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2022, 11:16:54 AM »
Hi Tim and Timberman, thank you both so much for the information, and for helping me to understand my Great Grandfather's army career and his whereabouts in more detail. I really appreciate you both taking the time to reply and for all the research too.   ;D

I don't know whether I can post a picture of the medical admissions on here or not, but I'm happy to send them over to you if you let me know how to.

There are two 1914 medical records, the earliest with a date of admission on the 3.10.14 with no date of discharge just a note to say “Tranf: to Braine 3”. In the disease column I think it reads Rheumatism. Although the record doesn't have the hospital recorded on it, the transcript does say it was the 14 field ambulance.

The second 1914 medical record has a date of admission as 8.10.14 at the No. 2 General Hospital. The disease appears to be Rheumatic fever. There is a date of discharge as 19.10.14. With number of days under treatment being 12 and in the observations column I think it reads “to convalescent camp”, but I cannot be sure of this.

The 1917 medical record is for the 31 ambulance train. It records an admission on the 12/5/17 and date of discharge to duty with duty crossed through on the 13/5/17. It records in the date of transfer column "entrained" Nesle and "detrained" Rouen. His disease was PUO, Trench Fever I assume?

I also have discovered another document, well half a document, that appears to have my Great Grandfather’s name on, but have absolutely no idea what it is. The transcript reads, “Originating Record WO 363. 2862 Emmanuel Gwilt, Montgomeryshire Yeomanry”. It’s year is 1914-1920. Again, if allowed I can post here or send it over to you both to see if you have any thoughts or ideas about it.

Thank you so much.