Author Topic: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment  (Read 490 times)

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« on: June 11, 2021, 03:15:56 AM »
I am searching for any information on Alfred Burley, in particular a photograph. What I do know is that Alfred was born in 1889 and joined the Manchester Regiment from the Workhouse in 1902. He served in India, Neuve Chapelle and Ypres and retired in 1923 as a Colour Quartermaster Sergeant. He married Flora McKechnie. He was killed in an air raid on 15 October 1940 at the Dame Alice Owens School. Any further info or a photo of him would be fabulous.

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 10:13:06 AM »
I am searching for any information on Alfred Burley, in particular a photograph. What I do know is that Alfred was born in 1889 and joined the Manchester Regiment from the Workhouse in 1902. He served in India, Neuve Chapelle and Ypres and retired in 1923 as a Colour Quartermaster Sergeant. He married Flora McKechnie. He was killed in an air raid on 15 October 1940 at the Dame Alice Owens School. Any further info or a photo of him would be fabulous.
My daughters nearly went to Dame Alice Owen's School, which relocated to Potter Bar in the 1970's.  91 civilians are recorded by CWGC as being killed in the school shelter, but there's no record for Alfred Burley being killed on this day.  If you provide the evidence I will look at adding him to the Roll with CWGC.  Not quite a Manchester Regiment non-commemoration, but worthewhile. Here's a record of events https://damealiceowens.herts.sch.uk/about-us/our-history/war-memorials/
Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 11:30:35 AM »
There are 3 post war photos of Alfred here. Search his name. https://manchester-regiment.org.uk/index.php.
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2021, 12:55:23 AM »
I am searching for any information on Alfred Burley, in particular a photograph. What I do know is that Alfred was born in 1889 and joined the Manchester Regiment from the Workhouse in 1902. He served in India, Neuve Chapelle and Ypres and retired in 1923 as a Colour Quartermaster Sergeant. He married Flora McKechnie. He was killed in an air raid on 15 October 1940 at the Dame Alice Owens School. Any further info or a photo of him would be fabulous.
My daughters nearly went to Dame Alice Owen's School, which relocated to Potter Bar in the 1970's.  91 civilians are recorded by CWGC as being killed in the school shelter, but there's no record for Alfred Burley being killed on this day.  If you provide the evidence I will look at adding him to the Roll with CWGC.  Not quite a Manchester Regiment non-commemoration, but worthewhile. Here's a record of events https://damealiceowens.herts.sch.uk/about-us/our-history/war-memorials/
Tim
Hi Tim - I did notice that Alfred is not on the roll. Unfortunately we have no evidence. Alfred was the caretaker of the school from 1928 until his death. He has heavily involved in all air raid activities and we were told he was with his wife Flora at the time of the raid. Flora was pulled from the ruins 17 hours later but Alfred's body was never found. The couple had no children but Flora gave details of the bombing to family, including her sister Elsie, my grandmother. Flora died a widow in 1969. I am finalising a biography on Sgt Issy Smith VC, Elsie's husband and my grandfather - hence the reasons for seeking the information.

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2021, 12:57:48 AM »
There are 3 post war photos of Alfred here. Search his name. https://manchester-regiment.org.uk/index.php.
Hi Tim - I have previously searched under 'Alfred Burley' but can only locate one photo, MR03572. Is there any other criteria I should be applying?

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2021, 07:35:37 AM »
Just search Surname and you'll find MR00746 & MR03573
I'd wondered what connection there was with Issy Smith VC and now see the two men were married to two sisters.
I can't find any Death Certificate for Alfred in 1940. All other candidates with 1888 (Born 14/03/1888 on 1939 register) birth don't fit other than a chap who died in Kettering in Q2 1941.  This may or may not be your Alfred, but I can't prove it's not.  Without a Death Certificate for a blitz death we cannot progress with CWGC.
If you have a tree on Ancestry please send me a link and I can cross check the records you've seen.  I think you've got everything incl 1939 Register & census, Workhouse & school records, birth and marriage, medal rolls for Delhi Durbar, Great War, Iraq etc etc (6 medals held in Regimental Museum). FMP Fold3 doesn't seem to add anything material and I can't see anything in the newspaper archive.  Here's a tree with family members, including his brother George, died on Gallipoli with London Regiment. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32952250/person/18368632332/facts This says Alfred died in 1944 but no evidence and there are other debatable points in the tree.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 08:31:04 AM by Tim Bell »
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Online mack

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,593
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2021, 01:52:48 PM »
hope you dont mind me asking,why couldnt mrs burley identify her husbands body from the 17 unidentified people,even if the bodies were in a bad condiion,she still would have been able to ID his clothing,its a long shot but you could ask the CWGC if they know which cemetery these unidentified people were buried in and then contact the cemetery for the grave details,they would have been buried in one grave,not all of them would have been adult males

mack

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2021, 06:24:22 PM »
Hi Mack,
The museum webpage identifies an address in Kettering and states Alfred died there on 28/05/1941, consistent with the death record I thought may be him.  Hence it seems he didn't die in the Blitz, but may have died from his injuries.
By strange coincidence I was lurking around Islington & St Pancras Cemetery this morning, where the casualties from the Dame Alice Owen's Scholl victims are probably buried.  Islington has a memorial for the civilian war deaths without any names.  The St Pancras Memorial is much more grand and lists the names, including 4 undidentied men and 2 women.
Just one Manchester Regiment casualty in the 2 cemeteries. 16th Bttn's 61509 Charles Bennett died of nephrites at the London City Hosp, 21/01/1919, aged 31.  He's inscribed on the Islington Screen Wall and buried out in the woods.
Tim
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 02:49:04 AM »
Issy,
This is what you need:-
http://www.themenbehindthemedals.org.uk/index.asp?page=full&mwsquery=({Person%20identity}={Burley,%20A})
Tim this is fantastic. I have painstakingly pieced his life together and this fills in the gaps! We were always told he died in the bombing, but there are no family members from that time left living to verify this one way or the other. There are a few Alfred Burleys who died between 1939 and 1942 so it is difficult to tell if the death in May 1941 is definitely him. Ordering the certificate ($50 AUD) might help but would not necessarily confirm I had the right one!

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2021, 02:53:43 AM »
Just search Surname and you'll find MR00746 & MR03573
I'd wondered what connection there was with Issy Smith VC and now see the two men were married to two sisters.
I can't find any Death Certificate for Alfred in 1940. All other candidates with 1888 (Born 14/03/1888 on 1939 register) birth don't fit other than a chap who died in Kettering in Q2 1941.  This may or may not be your Alfred, but I can't prove it's not.  Without a Death Certificate for a blitz death we cannot progress with CWGC.
If you have a tree on Ancestry please send me a link and I can cross check the records you've seen.  I think you've got everything incl 1939 Register & census, Workhouse & school records, birth and marriage, medal rolls for Delhi Durbar, Great War, Iraq etc etc (6 medals held in Regimental Museum). FMP Fold3 doesn't seem to add anything material and I can't see anything in the newspaper archive.  Here's a tree with family members, including his brother George, died on Gallipoli with London Regiment. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/32952250/person/18368632332/facts This says Alfred died in 1944 but no evidence and there are other debatable points in the tree.
Hi Tim - yes, I have all of the records plus the additional life story that you have sent me now. I have also written to the tree owner of every family tree on Alfred Burley for further info - some have replied but no one has any more detail. I don't believe the death date of 1944 is correct, but once again I have no evidence to support any death date.

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 03:02:17 AM »
Hi Mack,
The museum webpage identifies an address in Kettering and states Alfred died there on 28/05/1941, consistent with the death record I thought may be him.  Hence it seems he didn't die in the Blitz, but may have died from his injuries.
By strange coincidence I was lurking around Islington & St Pancras Cemetery this morning, where the casualties from the Dame Alice Owen's Scholl victims are probably buried.  Islington has a memorial for the civilian war deaths without any names.  The St Pancras Memorial is much more grand and lists the names, including 4 undidentied men and 2 women.
Just one Manchester Regiment casualty in the 2 cemeteries. 16th Bttn's 61509 Charles Bennett died of nephrites at the London City Hosp, 21/01/1919, aged 31.  He's inscribed on the Islington Screen Wall and buried out in the woods.
Tim
That's very interesting. So he could be one of the four unidentified, or in Kettering. If he and Flora were living at school from 1928 until his death, why would he be buried all the way up in Kettering? He had no connection there that I know of.

Offline Tim Bell

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,631
    • Grandad's Journey
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 07:46:27 AM »
Hi Issy,
I suspect the Regimental Archives have some correspondence with the Kettering address.  Try emailing them?
DCs are £7 and sent out by pdf.  It would show next of kin, age, cause and date of death.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
T
Following one Platoon and everything around them....
http://17thmanchesters.wordpress.com/about/

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2021, 09:04:15 AM »
Hi Issy,
I suspect the Regimental Archives have some correspondence with the Kettering address.  Try emailing them?
DCs are £7 and sent out by pdf.  It would show next of kin, age, cause and date of death.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
T
Hi Tim - thanks so much for this tip. I have ordered the certificate now, so I guess I will know soon - I will keep you posted!

Offline Issylee

  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Alfred Burley 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2021, 01:09:54 AM »
hope you dont mind me asking,why couldnt mrs burley identify her husbands body from the 17 unidentified people,even if the bodies were in a bad condiion,she still would have been able to ID his clothing,its a long shot but you could ask the CWGC if they know which cemetery these unidentified people were buried in and then contact the cemetery for the grave details,they would have been buried in one grave,not all of them would have been adult males

mack
Hi Mack - thought i had replied, but I didn't. We don't know why - in fact we know very little, other than we were told he died there. I have ordered the death certificate for May 1941 so maybe that will tell me.