Grandfather research - Battle Canove di Sotto Italy 08/08/1918

[Amelia]

Hi everyone,

I am looking for any information of 'other soldiers' who fought with my grandfather in the Manchester 20th Regiment. His name was John Thompson and he was in C Company,Platoon X.

He fought throughout the campaign in France, Belgium and Italy and was wounded on the night of 08/08/1918 in Italy at the Battle of Canove di Sotto.

We only have a couple of photographs of my Grandfather, one taken before he headed out to the front and the other as a Sgt on his return. I am interested to hear from others who also had family in the Italian campaign, as the National archives are telling me that the year from August 1917 to August 31st 1918 of the war diaries have been lost, so unfortunately, I cannot gain any further detail of his time there.

If anyone could help, I would be grateful.

Thanks
Amelia

[PhilipG]

Amelia, welcome to the Forum.    Re John Thompson (17772)  20th Manchesters. 

On the 1st August 1918, the battalion was at Carriola preparing for a raid by half the battalion and which was to be one of the raids to be made with other units along the whole of the British lines.   On the 8th August at 6 pm, "A" & "C" companies entered Gordon Trench etc at Canove Di Sotto ready for battle.    The actual raid took place at midnight and met with success, it being reported that 2 Austrian officers and 49 OR's were made prisoner.    By 2 am the raid was over and the Manchesters returned to Carriola.    As regards casualties, these were listed as one officer wounded (2nd Lt. Grimshaw), 3 men killed and 13 wounded.          PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

Amelia,

According to "Soldiers Died", it would appear that the following went into action with your grandfather in the raid on Canove Di Sotto and were killed in action on the 9th August 1918.

40340 Sgt. Harry Howard MM,   54182 Pte George William Kirkley,   42075 Pte William Steven,   &  40510 Sgt William Johnson.

They have no known grave and thus their names are recorded on the Giavera Memorial in Italy.

PhilipG.

[mack]

when your grandfather was appointed lance corporal on 4-2-17,he replaced L/cpl 40329 charles william stout,who was injured in the leg in his dugout,he was then promoted to cpl on 10-3-17 in place of cpl 17596 wilf cuffwright who had been promoted to sgt,cuffwright was later wounded in the ankle by shrapnel,on 2-10-17,he was appointed lance sergeant in place of L/sgt 16132 william miller,and on the 16-10-17 he was promoted to sergeant in place of sgt 17295 ernest beswick who was killed on 1-10-17.

L/cpl stout,east view,summerseat near manchester
cpl cuffwright 24 oak rd,crumpsall
sgt beswick newton heath
L/sgt miller,manchester,sgt miller died on 24th july 1920

he would definately have known cuffwright and beswick because they were original members of the battalion like your grandfather and came from the same general area of manchester

mack

[Amelia]

Mack and PhilipG

Thank you both so much, I am blown away with the information you have shared. We have been searching for years to try and find out bits of information to try and put our puzzle together.

Have either of you managed to view the 'missing year' from the Manchester's war diaries (August 1917 to August 1918), once COVID is over, I will try and make the trip down to Kew to see if it can be found, so that I can read it and take notes.

I do have some other questions, that you may be able to answer for me if that's ok?

1. Is there a map of the Battle of Canove si Sotto. I have lots of maps of the Somme and Ypres, as we used to live in Belgium and I have travelled to the front many times, hoping to try and trace my Grandfathers footsteps. I would like to see where 'Gordon Trench' is. I do have the Manchester Pals book, however, the map isn't very detailed, so I wondered if there was another one that had been produced.

2. I noticed on my Grandfathers service record that on 11/07/1915 when the Battalion were in Grantham, he went AWOL for 1 day +20 1/2 hours. It says punishment awarded 5 days. Does this mean he lost pay for 5 days? Plus, was this normal for men to  go missing? He married his first wife (not my Grandmother) on 28/10/1915 only two weeks before he went out to the front, so I have always assumed (maybe wrongly) that he probably nipped back to Manchester to see his sweetheart.

His bother William Thompson (43958) also joined the Manchester's, this is our next quest to find out where he served. I know from family stories that there were a few times during the campaign that they were close by each other, but not side by side. My Dad (who is now 91) remembers his Uncle very well and tells the story of 'riding' on his knee like a horse as a toddler, as Uncle William had terrible shell shock.

Thank you both, I really do appreciate you taking the time to reply to my thread.

Best regards

Amelia

[mack]

hiya amelia
this is all i have on william

43958 william,henry thompson
born 19-5-1894
lived 33 cheltenham st,miles platting
occupation.hoistman for george little+co,cannon st,manchester
enlisted 7-9-1914 8th manchester regiment
posted to 18th manchesters 20-9-1916.[D.company]
31st july 1917,badly wounded by gunshots in right forearm and right thigh,admitted to 2nd canadian war hospital,outram,france on 3rd august,notification was sent to his family that he was very ill,later sent to bradford war hospital on 13-8-17.
discharged unfit 18-7-1918,awarded silver war badge No428784
1919.married eleanor mckinnon
died 9-7-1951 at crumpsall hospital delauneys rd
resided 29 scholes drive,moston lane near oldham
he and eleanor are buried togethor in southern cemetery.grave details. AA.C.1565
described as a sober,honest and reliable soldier

mack

[mack]

amelia
the question about your grandfathers absence,he was confined to barracks for 5 days and no leave for two months

his first wife martha,ellen thompson[nee sermon]died in 1920,she was buried in philips park cemetery 29-6-1920.grave details. C.C.1247,your granddad was buried with her on 1-10-1930

i have a john thompson who married miss mary ridings at st.margarets church,hollinwood on 20-8-1921
resided 39 old hall lane oldham
is this your granddad

mack

[Amelia]

Hi Mack

Again, thank you for replying and for the information.

Yes, my grandma was Mary (Molly) Ridings, as you rightly state, she married John Thompson on 20/08/1921 at St Margaret's Chapel. We didn't know that John had been buried 'with' his first wife, as we have been to the cemetery and we were told it was a communal paupers grave, where many were sadly buried together, when there was no money to pay for their individual burial. My Dad and his brother discussed placing a plaque for their father, however, in the end they decided against it in case it upset other families who were buried in the same plot.

My Grandparents, had three children and also my Auntie Beatrice from my Granddad's first marriage, sadly, his sister also called Beatrice, wouldn't allow my Granddad and Grandma to bring my Auntie up with their own children, although I know she did visit their home, as we discussed it at length over the years, thankfully in later life, all the siblings had a good relationship. 

Thank you also for the information regarding William Thompson, I will pass this onto my cousin who has been looking into his campaign, we all divide tasks, as there is so much we would like to find out.

Best regards
Amelia

[charlie]

Amelia
If the War Diary for August is missing I suggest that you look at the Headquarters War Diary for 22 Infantry Brigade. There should be detailed maps and also reports sent in by the various brigade infantry battalions. It is possible that the August diary is just not where it should be, many War Diaries have had their pages jumbled up.

The period you are interested in is covered rather briefly in the British official history Military Operations Italy, there is also a sketch map which is unfortunately very large scale. The Austro-Hungarian official history covers the events of the 9th even more briefly! See the attached.

Charlie

[charlie]

Despite my best efforts the attachments have uploaded in reverse order.

Attached the A-H official history version of events

[mack]

Hi Mack

Again, thank you for replying and for the information.

Yes, my grandma was Mary (Molly) Ridings, as you rightly state, she married John Thompson on 20/08/1921 at St Margaret's Chapel. We didn't know that John had been buried 'with' his first wife, as we have been to the cemetery and we were told it was a communal paupers grave, where many were sadly buried together, when there was no money to pay for their individual burial. My Dad and his brother discussed placing a plaque for their father, however, in the end they decided against it in case it upset other families who were buried in the same plot.

My Grandparents, had three children and also my Auntie Beatrice from my Granddad's first marriage, sadly, his sister also called Beatrice, wouldn't allow my Granddad and Grandma to bring my Auntie up with their own children, although I know she did visit their home, as we discussed it at length over the years, thankfully in later life, all the siblings had a good relationship. 

Thank you also for the information regarding William Thompson, I will pass this onto my cousin who has been looking into his campaign, we all divide tasks, as there is so much we would like to find out.

Best regards
Amelia

hiya amelia
ime guessing that martha died from complications after the birth of beatrice,did your aunt blame her for marthas death

i forgot to mention,there was a lady called trudi who posted the same photos as you plus another of your granddad with a group of men in civvies,i think shes the daughter of your uncle george but not sure,they were posted in 2011

mack

[Amelia]

Hi Mack

Yes, Trudi is my cousin. I spoke with her last night about the burial, and she had investigated the 'pauper'/communal grave story that had been told in the family, and she confirmed your information, that our Grandfather was buried with his first wife in their family plot. We can only assume that our grandmother didn't have any money at the time and this could have been the reason why. It's good to clear away rumour and find the facts after all these years.

Thanks for making me aware of it, as I wouldn't have been any the wiser.

Best regards

Amelia

[Amelia]

Charlie

Thank you so  much for the information that you posted. I appreciate your help, I will print it off and add it to my research.

Best regards

Amelia

[mack]

Hi Mack

Yes, Trudi is my cousin. I spoke with her last night about the burial, and she had investigated the 'pauper'/communal grave story that had been told in the family, and she confirmed your information, that our Grandfather was buried with his first wife in their family plot. We can only assume that our grandmother didn't have any money at the time and this could have been the reason why. It's good to clear away rumour and find the facts after all these years.

Thanks for making me aware of it, as I wouldn't have been any the wiser.

Best regards

Amelia

hiya amelia
ime not a expert on burials but the grave that your grandfather and martha are buried in,doesnt look like a pauper/communal grave,the other people buried in this grave are marthas brother and her sister in law,thats more like a family grave

mack

[charlie]

Amelia
There is a trench map showing Gordon Trench here
https://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4057

Gordon Trench is in the ,,tear drop" on the dividing line between squares 34 & 35

Charlie