I'm looking for a military # for soldier in 2nd Manchester Regiment born 1875

[Sadies Search]

The Soldier's name is James Brown, a very common name, and It's like looking for a needle in a haystack! He is my daughter Sadie's 2nd Great-Grandfather and he was a Private in the 2nd Manchester Regiment.  He was born in 1875.  He was a Collier at the time of his 1901 marriage in Manchester.  On his daughter's 1903 Cheshire birth record, it is stated he is a soldier.  On his wife's 1907 death certificate, it is stated she died a widow and her husband James Brown was a "Private, 2nd Manchester Regiment".  I live in Florida, USA so unfortunately I'm not able to search records in person. Thank you in advance for any help.

[Tim Bell]

Hi Sadie's Mum,
Please can you provide the names for the wife and daughter of James Brown.  This helps corrolate the civil and military records.

My current thought is that your man is Pte 4100 James Brown of the Manchester Regiment.  James was a collier before he enlisted on 21/11/1893. Born in Craggs, Galway, James was serving in 4th Volunteer Bn when joined the regulars at Ashton. He claimed the age of 18y 6m.

Posted to 1st Bn in 1894, James was transferred to 2nd Bn in 1895 (India) and returned to 1st Bn in 1897 (Malta & Gibraltar) and 3rd Bn in 1900. 

An enquiry was heard for the circumstances of James falling down some stair in 1895.  The consequence can't be seen but it's interesting to see the president as Capt H Hitchins, who was killled in action was CO with 1st Bn at Ypres when he was killed on 26/04/1915.

He served with 1st Bn in the S African Boer War from 23/08/1899-01/09/1900.  He received the Queen's South Africa Medal with Clasps for the Defence of Ladysmith and Transvaal.  James was wounded at Graskop on 22/07/1900.

Discharged unfit from 3rd Bn on 24/04/1901.  Brother noted as Edward. James intended to live at George Tops Inn, Knutsford. His 'Character' was bad due to drunkenness.

Welcome to the Forum

Tim

[charlie]

Welcome to the forum.
The dates of his marriage and birth of his daughter would also help. To me the statements on the birth certificate and on his wife‘s death certificate suggest he was a serving soldier at the time of his death which would then rule out 4100 James Brown as he had been discharged.

The medal roll for the 2nd Battalion records 4 J Browns unfortunately without their christian names.
5926 can be ruled out due to his medal entitlement of both the King‘s and Queen‘s South Africa Medals.
5521 forfeited his entitlement to the medal, presumably due to absence or a serious crime.
4307 is recorded as deceased but I do not know when the comments were added to the roll.
5524 was discharged as an invalid

Charlie

[Tim Bell]

Morning Charlie,
You may be right that I have researched the wrong James Brown.  I just wonder if the occupation as Soldier on the birth certificate may refer to the 'last' occupation for an invalid that wasn't them working, who evidenty died soon after.  Accepting that 2nd Bn is wrong on all counts though. The date of discharge fits with a marriage soon after and the Cheshire connection works too.
Let's wait and see the names and dates for the civil records.
Cheers
Tim

[charlie]

Hi Tim
I‘m not suggesting anything is right or wrong at this stage, just throwing other possibilities into the melting pot.  Of course we are both making the assumption that he served in South Africa and didn‘t enlist after the war

Charlie

[Sadies Search]

Sorry for the delay everyone,

Jame Brown's wife's name was Lizzie Grant Cable.  They marry in July 1901 in Manchester but are living in Knutsford, Cheshire at the time of the girls's births and when I think James dies.  His wife and daughters move back to Manchester to live with or be near family.  Lizzie dies in 1907 and her father (Joseph Throop Cable of Manchester) raises their two daughters: Dorothy Aikin nee Brown and Annie Brown.  On James' wife's death certificate, I believe Joseph Throop Cable was the informant and he advised that James Brown was in 2nd Manchester Regiment.  I hope this is useful information.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your help.

[Sadies Search]

James was born 1875 or 1876 I'm not sure where.  His dad's name is Patrick and was a farmer deceased at the time of Jame's marriage.

James was living in Manchester in 1901 at the time of his marriage to Lizzie Grant Cable. According to the 1901 Census Lizzie was 24 years old living with her married brother and working as a "barmaid" in Manchester.  I can't find James in the Census.

They marry on July 15, 1901 in Manchester.  He states he is 26 years old and a Collier. She states she is 25 years old and has no occupation.

They have a daughter, Dorothy on Aug 28, 1902 in Knutsford, Cheshire.  Her baptism cert. is in Latin. 

They have another daughter, Annie on Jan. 17, 1904 in Knutsford.  Her baptism states "Pater mortius", father died. On a separate document, Annie's birth record her father (James Brown) is a soldier.

Jan. 4, 1907 Lizzie dies from pneumonia.  On her death certificate, it is stated that she died a widow and that her husband was a Private in the 2nd Manchester Regiment. 

UPDATE: I did find a James Brown, 27 years old, died Dec. 29, 1903 in Cross Town, Knutsford, Cheshire in a Workhouse.  I ordered his death certificate this morning.  Not sure if it's him but the name, age, and location fit so maybe it will help clear things up.  Likely though, if it is him it won't include his military service number.  The Workhouse death is surprising but I read somewhere that the working poor used the Workhouse infirmaries as low-income hospitals at that time. 

I will let you know what I learn from the death certificate when I get it by email in a few days. Thank you all for sharing your vast knowledge and help.

[Tim Bell]

The timeline, previous occupation and residence after discharge all correlate with the former 1st Bn man but there is nothing I can see that substantiates this as the same man.  A Pte James Brown is shown in the 1901 census at Farnborough with 3rd Bn, which may explain why your man cannot be found elsewhere.  The DC will probably say occcupation as Ex-Soldier and they sometimes state the former Regiment / Bn, eg Ex 1st Manchesters.

[Sadies Search]

Hello Tim and Charlie,

Thank you so much for your help.

Here's another piece of information I found: The address James Brown gives for his residence on his marriage document is "15 Green Lane, Ardwick" I looked this address up on NewsPapers . Com and I found this, "Private Detective Throop, Est. 1875. Consultations, 15, Green Lane, Higher Ardwick, Manchester." It was in Manchester Evening News, Greater Manchester, England 30 Mar 1900, Fri • Page 1.  James' wife's paternal grandmother's family name is Throop.

Both witnesses at the wedding were from Lizzie's family: Joseph Throop Cable and his wife. There were no witnesses from the Brown family. It just dawned on me that Lizzie must have been 2 months pregnant with Dorothy (her first child, my daughter's Great Grandmother) at the time of her marriage to James. 

You now know all I know about James Brown at this point.  I will update you once I receive the death certificate.  Thank you for your time and help.

~Tina aka Sadie's Mum

[Sadies Search]

Hello Tim and Charlie, 

I hope all are well. 

Here is the information from (Sadie's great x2 grandfather) James Brown's 1903 death certificate.

He died the "29th of Dec. 1903 in a workhouse in Knutsford."

He was a 27-year-old "pensioner of the 1st Manchester Regiment (of Knutsford)" at the time of his death.

He died of "Chronic Bronchitis, acute Bronchitis, Cyanosis"

The informant was "L. G. Brown widow of the deceased in attendance Claytons Cottages Knutsford."  So, I know we have the correct James Brown since Sadie's great x2 grandmother is Lizzie Grant Brown.

Please, let me know what you think when you have time.  Thank you🌺. 

~Tina