The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: Mark Hone on June 01, 2015, 07:34:55 PM

Title: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 01, 2015, 07:34:55 PM
In preparation for the centenary next year I wonder if anyone has additional information about any of these old boys of BGS who served in the three City Battalions involved in the attack on Montauban on 1st July 1916. I have photos and obituaries of all those who died, except F.S. Harding whose picture has so far proved elusive.
16th Battalion:
Private EM Blacow
Private (later Sergeant) Hubert Dawson (killed 1917)
Private HH Hayes
Private SW Ramsbottom
Private (later Sergeant) Roger Smith MM (killed later on the Somme)
17th Battalion:
Private FS Harding (killed 1st July)
Private H Howarth (killed 1st July)
Private J Howarth
Private AE Nuttall
19th Battalion:
Private S Ashworth
Private JH Bott (killed 1st July)
Private J Halstead
Corporal Frank Jackson
Private HI Lord (killed 1918)
Private Tom Shaw (killed later in the Somme)
Private J. Wilson
The attack on Montauban will be the subject of a special school assembly on 1st July 2016 and will feature on our Centenary Tour 'Swans on the Somme'.
Any information, however scanty,will be much appreciated and helps to build up the jigsaw. Thanks very much.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Tim Bell on June 01, 2015, 08:29:41 PM
Mark,
This looks like a great project and I hope you continue to build on the memory of these men with their successors.
It's a bit odd the 18th Battalion was not represented by BGS old boys.  They were the support Battalion at Montauban.

It's especially strange that I've identified no men from 18th Battalion as old boys of Manchester Warehouseman and Clerks' Orphans School.  I think this can only be a coincidence.

Tim

Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 02, 2015, 10:02:09 AM
Actually we did have an old boy serving in 18th battalion: Private Ernest Howarth, brother of Herbert who was killed on 30th July 1916 and is buried at Delville Wood. He is the only one I am aware of, though, and the other City Battalions each had several old boys in their ranks. The Howarths are one of two sets of BGS brothers who died on the Somme, the others being Sergeant Roger Smith of 16th battalion and his brother Lt. Alec Smith of the LFs who died near Mametz Wood.
Herbert was exhumed and reburied at Delville Wood but on the Exhumation Form it gives the map reference of his original burial simply as T.13.C. He was incorrectly recorded originally on this form as 'Howard'. At least one other 18th Battalion man killed on 30th July, 10762 Private T.D. (actually S.D.) Booth, was discovered in the same location and reburied at Delville Wood. Can someone help to pinpoint the original grave location?
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 02, 2015, 12:03:52 PM
sgt 6683 roger smith[A.coy] was in a forward post with two other men,the germans had been shelling the 16th batts positions for two hour,after the shelling stopped,a party was sent out to check on the post,they found the remains of three men at the spot but could not positively ID them,they collected togethor what they could find and buried them.
MM won at maricourt
resided 13 monmouth ave,bury
clerk for lancs+yorks bank


cpl 8441 ernest,mawdsley blacow was in the 17th manchesters
his arm was smashed by a piece of shrapnel in july 1916,he was discharged as physically unfit from whalley hospital on 5th may 1917
worked as a clerk for the lancs+yorks bank,spring gardens,manchester
residence the willows,lime grove,preston,later moved to 10 riding st,southport

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 02, 2015, 01:01:31 PM
Thanks for that, Mack. Roger Smith does have a grave, at Warlencourt Cemetery. I've never visited it so don't know if the three are buried together, one headstone etc.


Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 02, 2015, 01:40:25 PM
Thanks for that, Mack. Roger Smith does have a grave, at Warlencourt Cemetery. I've never visited it so don't know if the three are buried together, one headstone etc.



only sgt smith is in the grave mark,its very likely that the remains of all three are buried there.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 02, 2015, 04:40:16 PM
signallers 6232 Hubert dawson[A.coy] and 6203 Edward aldcroft chalked their names and their battalion on the two captured artillery pieces at montauban.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 06, 2015, 08:05:49 AM
The names of the 'chalkers' are given elsewhere as Privates Aldous and Price, although the late Graham Maddocks in his book on Montauban recognises in a note that other sources record Dawson and Aldcroft. Were all four involved?
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Robert Bonner on June 06, 2015, 06:29:28 PM
The 16th Bn war diary of the day states:

Captured two guns. Nos 62232 Pte Dawson & A6203 Pte Aldcroft went forward and wrote their own names & the name of the battalion on them. Also about 100 prisoners.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 07, 2015, 10:36:39 AM
The names of the 'chalkers' are given elsewhere as Privates Aldous and Price, although the late Graham Maddocks in his book on Montauban recognises in a note that other sources record Dawson and Aldcroft. Were all four involved?
hiya mark.
there was nobody called Aldous with the battalion,and there were only two men called price,7180 charles price was sniped two weeks previous and 7572 Richard price[B.coy] was wounded in the attack.

it was just ptes aldcroft+dawson,both A.coy signallers.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: themonsstar on June 07, 2015, 12:22:04 PM
If its the same Dawson, he became the CO of the 8th (Ardwick) Bn in the 193Os and was awarded the MM.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 07, 2015, 12:59:24 PM
If its the same Dawson, he became the CO of the 8th (Ardwick) Bn in the 193Os and was awarded the MM.
he was killed on 23rd april 1917 roy.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 07, 2015, 02:15:52 PM
If its the same Dawson, he became the CO of the 8th (Ardwick) Bn in the 193Os and was awarded the MM.
that's 6368 Samuel,percy dawson[known as percy]

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 08, 2015, 06:50:39 PM
Thanks very much. I wonder where the Aldous and Price story came from? Hubert Dawson was indeed killed at Arras. His photograph and newspaper obituary were pasted in his scrapbook by his school friend and fellow Manchester Pal Tom Cartman. As described elsewhere, the scrapbook was miraculously rescued from a rubbish skip in Blackpool and a digitized version can now be seen on our school website. It will soon be one of the treasures featured on our new Bury Grammar School Archives website. Watch this space. 
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on June 08, 2015, 09:27:53 PM
the original source was a incorrect report in the newspapers,they said that captain Morton Johnson had chalked the 16th batts name on the guns,Lt nash said that capt Johnson did no such thing,he sent two of his men to do this Aldous+price.

mack ;D
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 09, 2015, 06:51:54 AM
Thanks for that. Harvey Lord died serving with 1st Hull Pals in April 1918. I am assuming he was transferred when 19th Manchesters were disbanded in February.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on June 23, 2015, 09:28:54 AM
Thanks for all the info. Frederick Harding of 17th Battalion is the only BGS Somme fatality for whom I do not have a photograph. I have tried every source I can think of, to no avail. I have his platoon photo but as usual no idea which soldier he is.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Rigg on November 03, 2015, 12:46:43 PM
Mark,
Are you still looking for information - I believe AE Nuttall from the 17th is my Grandfather?

Regards

Bill
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Tim Bell on November 04, 2015, 02:53:45 PM
Hi Bill,
I've no doubt Mark will respond to your post very soon, but other people are interested in the 17th Bttn and an info on Alfred would be good to see.  I've seen he went to France with the 17th and was discharged for Commission with W Yorks R or poss MGC in 1917. 

For his time with the Manchesters please see http://www.themanchesters.org/17th%20batt.htm (http://www.themanchesters.org/17th%20batt.htm)

Cheers

Tim
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on November 06, 2015, 07:35:17 PM
Sorry, I hadn't logged in this week. I would be absolutely delighted to receive any information you have on AE Nuttall, Bill. Inevitably, I only tend to have details of those old boys who died, so information on one who survived would be fantastic. As stated, I am planning a special assembly for 1st July 2016 about the Pals and the attack on Montauban will be a focus of our October 2016 Centenary Battlefields Tour to the Somme.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on February 21, 2016, 06:03:54 PM
I still haven't tracked down the officer's letter which was sent to me which mentions Roger Smith and Hubert Dawson of 16th Battalion on the first day of the Somme. I'm beginning to think that I've imagined it!
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on March 20, 2016, 05:56:21 AM
Thanks to a contact I have made through this Forum I have now been sent photos and details of three of the old boys mentioned on the list, who were relatives or close friends: AE 'Eddie' Nuttall, Tom Halstead and Hubert Hayes. I am extremely grateful. I have also discovered a better picture of Ernest Howarth from the now defunct 'Bury Guardian'. Eddie Nuttall was wounded at Trones Wood but recovered to be commissioned in the Machine Gun Corps; Hubert Hayes was commissioned into the 7th Bn South Lancashire Regiment in 1917 and won the MC for actions during the final advance in September/October 1918. In the second of these he was badly wounded and lost a leg.
Is it possible to verify if Halstead and Hayes took part on 1st July?

Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: PhilipG on March 20, 2016, 04:38:55 PM
Mark Hone,

                 2nd Lt. H.H.Hayes MC

As you state, the above named officer was awarded the Military Cross, the date of publication in the Gazette being 15.2.19.

I see that the 7th Bn.South Lancs, was disbanded on the 22nd February 1918.  However, further research indicates that he was attached to the 6th Bn. York & Lancs. so, in view of what you indicate as to his service during "the Last Hundred Days", it seems possible that he won his MC whilst attached to the Y & L.

Trust you are well. PhilipG.

     
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on March 20, 2016, 09:09:13 PM
Philip,
Thanks for that. Re-reading his MC citation it does record that he was attached to 6th Y and L. It looks as if he may not have been present on 1st July as one of the photos I have been sent shows him on Llandudno beach with his mother, dressed in 'hospital blue' and labelled June 1916. I presume that he was recuperating from illness or injury but haven't been able to confirm this.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on April 06, 2016, 04:49:09 PM
Sorry, I missed at least one from my original list-Private Harry Orrell, 18th Battalion,  who was later killed at Arras on 23rd April 1917.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: mack on April 07, 2016, 08:28:50 PM
Thanks to a contact I have made through this Forum I have now been sent photos and details of three of the old boys mentioned on the list, who were relatives or close friends: AE 'Eddie' Nuttall, Tom Halstead and Hubert Hayes. I am extremely grateful. I have also discovered a better picture of Ernest Howarth from the now defunct 'Bury Guardian'. Eddie Nuttall was wounded at Trones Wood but recovered to be commissioned in the Machine Gun Corps; Hubert Hayes was commissioned into the 7th Bn South Lancashire Regiment in 1917 and won the MC for actions during the final advance in September/October 1918. In the second of these he was badly wounded and lost a leg.
Is it possible to verify if Halstead and Hayes took part on 1st July?


hiya mark
j.halstead was pte 12365 john fenton halstead[bomber],19th manchesters,he took no part in any actions during the war,he was attached to the 30th division HQs until 14th march 1918 when he was posted to the 17th battalion,he was then attached to 227th employment coy on 11th oct 1918 and finally posted to 16th manchesters on 1st December,his twin brother tom,nuttall halstead was pte GS/48310 Thomas,nuttall halstead,20th royal fusiliers
john halstead was a former member of bury grammar school OTC[1911]
he married edith,evelyn longworth at Manchester cathedral on 21-8-1924
died at devizes hospital,wiltshire on 21-6-1965
born.30-7-1891
place of residence.croes gongl moelfre,anglesea.

mack
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on April 16, 2016, 12:09:23 PM
Thanks for that, Mack.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Penny on September 27, 2016, 07:21:36 PM
Thomas Nuttall Halstead was my grandfather. He was in the 20th Royal Fusiliers and so was not involved in 1st July, however he did take part in action in High Wood on 20th July and was injured. After recovering he applied for a commission and joined the 2/6th Manchesters and was wounded again in March 1918. he survived and set up a chartered accountancy firm in Manchester and married my grandmother Doris Smithie.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: PhilipG on September 27, 2016, 08:45:29 PM
Penny,

Re your grandfather's service in the 20th Royal Fusiliers.  There is a book published in 1917 called the History of the Royal Fusiliers, University & Public Schools Brigade (Formation & Training).  It covers their activities in England at Epsom, Ashtead and Leatherhead prior to going to France.

Robert Graves called the battalion "The Chocolate Soldiers" on account of the size and quality of the parcels received by the battalion from home.  My relative who won the MM with the 20th Bn. was wounded at High Wood and subsequently died. PhilipG.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on September 28, 2016, 06:26:11 AM
Quite a few Bury Grammar boys joined the 20th RF-it was either that or the Manchester Pals. Most of them ended up being transferred to other units or sent off for officer training but about a dozen were still serving in the battalion in early 1916. One of them, Private Alan Bradley, was killed on 20th July and is buried in Caterpillar Valley Cemetery. We shall be visiting his grave on our October tour.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Penny on September 28, 2016, 04:35:25 PM
Philip,
Thank you for the book info, I shall try to find a copy...

Re: Chocolate soldiers, in all the letters my grandfather wrote to his sister he sends thanks for fruit cake, biscuits, reading material etc.

Penny

Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: PhilipG on September 30, 2016, 07:23:42 PM
Mark,

I feel very envious of the fact that you will shortly be visiting Caterpillar Valley Cemetery.  In my younger days (nowadays my undercarriage is u/s), I found that  the account of the attack by the 20th Deccan Horse on the 14th July 1916 on High Wood as viewed from the cemetery, never  failed to interest the school children on the tour.  Incidentally, it was in the field adjacent to Crucifix Corner that my relative was badly wounded whilst serving with the 20th Royal Fusiliers and it was from Crucifix Corner that the Deccan Horse (and 7th Dragoon Gds.) commenced  their disastrous attack.    Best wishes.  PhilipG.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on October 01, 2016, 08:13:29 AM
As we are approaching the centenary of the death of Sgt Roger Smith MM and I am finalising his online obituary, I am making a last desperate appeal about the possible mention of him on 1st July 1916 in an officer's account. Someone sent me a mention of him with his arm in a sling being advised by the officer to seek medical treatment but refusing as he feared he might be sent back to another unit. Unfortunately I have mislaid the email since and despite wracking my brains cannot recall who sent it. Apologies, I think that this all happened around the time I suffered a serious injury 18 months ago. It's not Lt Nash-I have his book.
Thanks to local newspapers and contributors to this forum I have detailed accounts of his MM action and death but would like to complete this piece of the puzzle. I have also seen mention of him somewhere being originally with his friends Hubert Dawson (killed 1917) and Tom Cartman (died at sea 1940) in 1 Platoon A Company 16th Manchesters but now I can only find reference to him being in B Company.
Any help much appreciated, as always. We shall be visiting this brave man's grave at Warlencourt Cemetery on our forthcoming Somme tour.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Robert Bonner on October 01, 2016, 03:28:34 PM
Mark.
This is probably what you are looking for.  It is an extract from a letter to Hubert Worthington from Colour Sergeant Peter Darlington, CQMS A Company 16th Bn, written on 20 July 1916.

Roger Smith is walking about with a wounded shoulder, would not go in Hospital for fear he should be sent to another Bn when better & there are many deeds which would have given you heaps of pride and pleasure. Briefly put, it is an honour to belong to the Bn.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on October 01, 2016, 07:33:11 PM
Robert-you've made my day. I had of course misremembered the details, not least that it was an officer who reported the incident. Was it you who pointed this out to me originally? I shall post a link to Roger Smith's obituary on our Archive website when I have completed it.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Robert Bonner on October 02, 2016, 05:04:37 PM
Mark.
'Twas I.  Delighted to be of help.
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Mark Hone on July 07, 2018, 06:56:35 PM
Detailed obituaries of all of the Bury Grammar School Manchester Pals old boys who died in the Great War, including the last, Lance Corporal Harvey Ingham Lord, can be read at:
http://bgsarchive.co.uk/authenticated/Browse.aspx?SectionID=164&tableName=ta_boys_rollofhonour
Title: Re: Bury Grammar School old boys on 1st July 1916
Post by: Tim Bell on July 07, 2018, 08:06:36 PM
Excellent project Mark. Congratulations on your hard work, perseverance and commitment to tell the story of your Old Boys. I hope the pupils continue to engage with their predecessors’ stories.
Tim