The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 12:05:58 PM

Title: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 12:05:58 PM
Hi, I'm very new to this game but I am looking for any information about my Great Granddad.

21092 Arthur Heath
corporal
22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Died 1/7/16 (Mametz)

and is mentioned on the THIEPVAL MEMORIAL.

I'm not sure what information there is I could discover but if anyone has any information, or routes to information that I could follow, I would be very grateful.



Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 02:05:32 PM
do you have this?
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 03:09:58 PM
No I don't have it thanks.

Can you explain what it means. Does it mean he was decorated for something?
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: migky on August 14, 2009, 04:01:08 PM
This might help some?
Migky ;)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp)

http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/mic.htm (http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/mic.htm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_One_-_Medal_Abbreviations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_One_-_Medal_Abbreviations)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 14, 2009, 04:42:27 PM
hiya andy
best i can do mate

cpl 21092 arthur heath
landed in france,12-11-15
killed in action 1-7-16
aged 29
born withington ab 1887
lived at 24 ogden st,hulme
married with three children
son of ellen heath and the late william,12 pownall st hulme
worked at charles macintosh+company
hes on their roll of honour

mack ;D
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 14, 2009, 04:46:16 PM
forgot to add,he was one of nine children,had three older brothers,edward,william and george

mack
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 04:46:32 PM
That helps a lot thanks.

What are the other sources I should be looking at.
Thanks.

And Mack - that is fantastic thanks.

All I have is a photo with his name and rank and reg. so all this is superb.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 14, 2009, 04:57:57 PM
That helps a lot thanks.

What are the other sources I should be looking at.
Thanks.

And Mack - that is fantastic thanks.

All I have is a photo with his name and rank and reg. so all this is superb.
can we have a copy for our photo gallery andy

mack ;D
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 04:58:32 PM
Do you know who he married and the names of his children? :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 05:01:50 PM
Arthur in 1901
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 05:03:35 PM
And in 1891
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 14, 2009, 05:04:33 PM
That helps a lot thanks.

What are the other sources I should be looking at.
Thanks.

And Mack - that is fantastic thanks.

All I have is a photo with his name and rank and reg. so all this is superb.
harribob has done a history of the 22nd batt,one of the gang will add the link,theres also michael stedmans book,the manchester pals,its a pretty good read.
theres very little in the newspapers,only what ive posted

mack ;D
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 05:31:13 PM
You lot are stars. I will scan the picture and up load it soon. I also have a very poor photocopy of the 22nd (Service) Battalion Manchester Regiment, 'C' Company, Platoon No. XII (Date taken unknown) which I will scan as well.

I have just talked to my Mum (It is her Granddad) and she has a copy of a marriage certificate which is a bit confusing. Need to check this out as it is very contradictory.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 14, 2009, 06:10:44 PM
You lot are stars. I will scan the picture and up load it soon. I also have a very poor photocopy of the 22nd (Service) Battalion Manchester Regiment, 'C' Company, Platoon No. XII (Date taken unknown) which I will scan as well.

I have just talked to my Mum (It is her Granddad) and she has a copy of a marriage certificate which is a bit confusing. Need to check this out as it is very contradictory.
hiya andy.
if the platoon picture is a poor copy,give one of the gang a shout,and they will post a better one for you.

mack ;D
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 07:26:59 PM
This is 21092 Private (later Corporal) Arthur Heath 22nd Bn. Manchester Regiment, 'C' Company, Platoon No. XII
(http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/BarrowBlue/ArthurHeath001.jpg)

This is his Platoon No. XII
(http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/BarrowBlue/ManBn.jpg)

And this is the reverse
(http://i511.photobucket.com/albums/s352/BarrowBlue/003.jpg)

Unfortunately the names are not in order.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 07:42:20 PM
Do you know who he married and the names of his children? :)
I have a marriage certificate (well Mum does) which says he married Emily Carter (Barker??). However it says he was 27 in 1904 and his Father was Charles Fredrick Heath (Deceased). So I'm beginning to think this is not a copy of his certificate at all.

His Children were Elsie (My Gran), Florence, and Arthur Fredrick.

I'm quite confused now
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 07:58:12 PM
Do you know who he married and the names of his children? :)
I have a marriage certificate (well Mum does) which says he married Emily Carter (Barker??). However it says he was 27 in 1904 and his Father was Charles Fredrick Heath (Deceased). So I'm beginning to think this is not a copy of his certificate at all.

His Children were Elsie (My Gran), Florence, and Arthur Fredrick.

I'm quite confused now

I wouldn't say that's the right certificate either, there is another marriage of Arthur Heath to Mary Simpson, but it's not him as his records are on ancestry, he didn't die. Any idea to which year your gran was born?

Jane :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 08:16:42 PM
I think there is an Arthur Heath showing up on the 1911 census with a daughter Elsie b 1909, you'd have to view the transcript.

Jane :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 08:17:28 PM
Do you know who he married and the names of his children? :)
I have a marriage certificate (well Mum does) which says he married Emily Carter (Barker??). However it says he was 27 in 1904 and his Father was Charles Fredrick Heath (Deceased). So I'm beginning to think this is not a copy of his certificate at all.

His Children were Elsie (My Gran), Florence, and Arthur Fredrick.

I'm quite confused now

I wouldn't say that's the right certificate either, there is another marriage of Arthur Heath to Mary Simpson, but it's not him as his records are on ancestry, he didn't die. Any idea to which year your gran was born?

Jane :)

17th November 1906
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 08:50:37 PM


17th November 1906
[/quote]

Right, found her birth registered in Prestwich

Births Dec 1906
Heath    Elsie        Prestwich    8d   371

looking again at the 1911, there's an Elsie aged 4, Florence aged 2 months and an Emily aged 41, all appear to be living together in the Chorlton district, no mention of an arthur. I'll keep looking :)

If you ordered your gran's birth certificate, it would give you her mother's name including maiden name. 
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 09:00:56 PM
Great Gran was Emily Carter. She was previously married to William Carter. Her maiden name was Emily Davison.
Arthur Heath was I think in the Merchant Navy so could have been at sea in 1911. It is the age thing that is confusing me.

My Great Granddad would have been 39 in 1916 not 29 as stated. His Marriage certificate does look smudge and doctored about the age but...

I'll keep trying. I really hope the two are the same.

It is quite interesting that in Manchester in 1911 there were two Arthur Heath's with eldest daughters Elsie.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 09:13:00 PM
Births Mar 1911       
Heath    Florence         Chorlton    8c   886

Births Dec 1914   
HEATH    Arthur P    Davison    Chorlton    8c   1636

The middle initial is wrong, probably a typing error on the original, well it seems that Emily born in 1870, was approx. 17 years older, that would explain him adding 10 years to his age! There are quite a few Arthur's showing up in 1911 as 'overseas military' so I think you're right in saying he may be at sea.

The 1891 census has his father as William, I'm wondering if Charles Frederick was possibly an uncle, I'll see if I can find earlier census returns for you.

There's a marriage of an Emily Davison to a William Richard Carter in 1889 Barton I district, I'll try to find Emily in 1891 and 1901, may throw up some more clues for you :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 09:17:08 PM
Emily in 1891
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 09:18:24 PM
Emily in 1901

Deaths Mar 1902 
Carter    William Richard    36    Chorlton    8c   586
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 09:21:02 PM
You are a star Jane. Thanks.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 09:37:12 PM
Arthur's parents in 1881
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 09:46:42 PM
And in 1871 lodging with the Renshaw family in Sale
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 14, 2009, 10:00:21 PM
This appears to be William's death in 1899

Deaths Dec 1899   
Heath    William    61    Chorlton    8c   597

No mention of a Charles Frederick anywhere. The chances are he lied about his age and father to the vicar so he could get married, he would've been classed as a minor and needed consent. I'll see if I can find William on earlier census returns tomorrow, it may throw up some brothers for him.  :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 14, 2009, 10:22:34 PM
Thank you so much.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: JC on August 15, 2009, 09:57:24 AM
Quite a few hits for William Heath's prior to 1871, but none that immediately fit, not having much luck locating a marriage for him and Ellen. I suggest you get Arthur's birth certificate, that'll give you Ellens maiden name.

Births Jun 1887   
Heath    Arthur        Chorlton    8c   362 (this bits wrong, image says 862)

You can order the certificate here http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ costs the usual £7 and normally takes about 5 days.

Jane :)
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 15, 2009, 10:47:28 AM
hiya andy
best i can do mate

cpl 21092 arthur heath
landed in france,12-11-15
killed in action 1-7-16
aged 29
born withington ab 1887
lived at 24 ogden st,hulme
married with three children
son of ellen heath and the late william,12 pownall st hulme
worked at charles macintosh+company
hes on their roll of honour

mack ;D

Mack - where does the info about address and Mum and Dad come from please as this is really confusing me.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: mack on August 15, 2009, 08:32:59 PM
hiya andy
best i can do mate

cpl 21092 arthur heath
landed in france,12-11-15
killed in action 1-7-16
aged 29
born withington ab 1887
lived at 24 ogden st,hulme
married with three children
son of ellen heath and the late william,12 pownall st hulme
worked at charles macintosh+company
hes on their roll of honour

mack ;D

Mack - where does the info about address and Mum and Dad come from please as this is really confusing me.
hiya andy.
i got the parents and their address,from the census,but 24 ogden st,was from the casualty rolls

mack ;D
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: harribobs on August 16, 2009, 03:46:58 PM
hi andy

sorry for my late entry into this thread ;D

the platoon photo and listing is from the 'pals' book of honour' i can do you a better quality photo if you so wish

cheers

chris
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: harribobs on August 16, 2009, 03:47:22 PM
the objectives of the 22nd battalion that day were Bunny Ally and Fritz trench, which were northeast  of Mametz,

the 22nd's start point was roughly southeast, they left the trenches at 7.30, the map below is just to give you a rough idea of where they were starting from and going to. the divisional objective was Mametz it's self

(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/269773860_ebp6g-M.jpg)

B and D coys in front and C and A coys following, although taking heavy casualties they achieved their first objectives , Black Trench fell, then Bucket trench, however, they were losing contact with the creeping barrage and as the moved forward they suffered more and more casualties, they took Danzig Alley but couldn't hold on to it as they german defenders emerged from their bunkers and manned their machine guns. They fell back and the attack had stalled.

however a further bombardment and the sight of german defenders streaming away from the successful attack on Montauban meant the division could move forward and take Mametz . The 2nd Queens moved into Danzig Alley and drove the defenders out, 'bombing' them as they moved along the trench. this allowed the attack to move forward again and the 22nd with elements of the 21st battn as reinforcements were in Danzig Alley by late afternoon

Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 16, 2009, 07:52:37 PM
Hi harribobs
Yes please I would love a better quality photo. Thank you.

The map is really interesting and really begins to put into context what they all had to go through. Thank you again.

Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 24, 2009, 07:13:36 PM
Ok I now have my Great Granddad's entry of birth.

7th March 1887 at 12 Pownall Street to William and Ellen Heath (Nee Clarke)
His dad is a stoker in the Gas works and Ellen couldn't write as she made a mark.
He was not registered until 5th April.

I think I will have to search out what the records say about his wedding as this is the bit causing the problem.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: harribobs on August 24, 2009, 10:39:35 PM
opps a little late

click on the photo for bigger, right click and save

chris
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 24, 2009, 10:46:06 PM
Thanks Chris.
Title: Re: 21092 Arthur Heath corporal 22nd Bn Manchester Reg
Post by: AndyB on August 01, 2010, 10:06:09 PM
OK after a lot of research I have found more info on my Great Granddad. His parents weren't William and Ellen. He was born in Withington workhouse as Arthur Howard in 1881. His mum Mary Ellen Howard moved in with here mother Ann Molloy (Howard) and step father James Molloy and this is recorded in the 1881 census. He lived at 3 Back Hawthorn Street, Ardwick. Some. In 1891 his mother had married Charles Fredrick Heath, a confectioner on Blackfriars Street. In 1901 he is a barman in the Birmingham Arms, Birmingham and is single. He then married Emily Carter a widow. He is not on the 1911 census but we believe he was at sea in the merchant navy. His family of two children and his wife lived at 3 Rosamond terrace with her brother and family.