The Manchester Regiment Forum

The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 12:01:51 PM

Title: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 12:01:51 PM
44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R

Am trying to identify my grandfathers Battalion - please see an earlier submission.

Did Battalions have different cap badges? 

Would anyone know what Battalion my grandfather was in from the attached photo circa 1914?
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: migky on January 23, 2009, 12:19:46 PM
Found his Medal card if you want that?
Migky  ;)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 12:43:05 PM
Hi Migky

Thanks for the offer of Stanley's medal card.  I have already been successful in getting this from the National Archives but it doesn't say very much.  In fact nothing at all about his theatre of war!

I have his 2 brothers medal cards :) as well.   Sydney's medal card (his younger brother) who was an AB Seaman in the RNVR is really comprehensive (to the extent of documentation about his civilian occupation, height, weight, complexion, eye colour, transfer dates, date killed, return of personal effects etc.).  Alfonso (an elder brother) was a Pte in the Suffolk Regiment & his medal card contains more info (date killed in France etc.).

If you would be kind enough to post the medal card you have for Stanley I can then check it is the same as I have.  
Many thanks for your reply.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 02:43:00 PM
Hi Migky

Thanks for the medal card image.  It is exactly what I have obtained from the National Archives.  It really doesn't say an awful lot but never mind at least I have & can pass on to the Museum both the Victory medal & War Service Medal 1914 -1918 he was awarded for his service in WW1. 

The other medals he was awarded were The Special Constabulary Long Sevice Medal with Bar dated 1939.  This was in recognition for at least 9 years unpaid service with more than 50 duties per annum.  From this it is safe to assume he joined in 1930 & carried on his service throughout WW2.  I can say this because he was awarded the Defence Medal in 1944 - a medal awarded to a person serving at least 3 years at home during WW2 in a civil organisation such as the Special Constabulary.  Other organisations were the Home Guard, Civil Defence, National fire Service.  Apologies if you know this already but other readers may not.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: themonsstar on January 23, 2009, 04:39:48 PM
44510 A/Cpl

20th Bn Manch Regt. He moved overseas anytime after  1st Jan 1916, has he does not have a 1915 Star.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 23, 2009, 05:07:31 PM
pte 23429 alfonso vince
12th manchesters[1918]
25 james henry st,salford
listed in salford absent voters register

mack
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 05:19:14 PM
Thanks themonstar- it's great to find out about my Grandfathers Battalion & that he went overseas in 1916 to fight - hence no 1915 Star.  iI your opinion or to your knowledge would this tie in with him being in action at the Somme in 1916 & later in Italy in 1917?  If you don't have an opinion or know does the Museum have details of where the 20th Battalion went & when?

Would you be kind enough to visit www.bbc.co.uk/remembrance/wall - to sign in & update Stanley's story there (as an additional memory).  If you don't want to do so just let me know so I can do it.  :) :) :) :) :)   Many thanks again.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 05:25:31 PM
Hi mack

Thanks for this info - will pass to the Museum for their info/use.  I visit Salford on businees very regularly so will aim to look up his place of residence in the near future - if it has not been re-developed!  Someone may remember him , where he went, or know his descendants.  :) 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 23, 2009, 05:38:32 PM
Hi mack

Thanks for this info - will pass to the Museum for their info/use.  I visit Salford on businees very regularly so will aim to look up his place of residence in the near future - if it has not been re-developed!  Someone may remember him , where he went, or know his descendants.  :) 
have you tried the salford discussion forum,the folks on there,are great people,they may be able to help.

mack
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 23, 2009, 05:48:16 PM
Hi mack - thanks.

Will discuss with the Museum - they may want to do this instead of me.  After all he is not one of my Vince relatives - just a Vince who no doubt bravely fought in & survived WW1 in a Manchester Regiment Battalion.   If others can enhance his story as well as us it would be fantastic.  I will definitely do what I have said about visiting Salford to hopefully find out more.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: harribobs on January 23, 2009, 09:30:40 PM
44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R

Am trying to identify my grandfathers Battalion - please see an earlier submission.

Did Battalions have different cap badges? 

Would anyone know what Battalion my grandfather was in from the attached photo circa 1914?

he wasn't in the manchester regiment when that photo was taken, that's a fusiliers cap badge ;)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 24, 2009, 01:20:05 AM
found this man,is he one of yours
pte 5992 luke vince,18 ariele st,salford
13th manchesters
parents frank+margaret
brothers alphonse+felix
formerly lived at 26 harry st,ordsall
father was a docker,born in france

mack
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on January 24, 2009, 11:07:23 AM
greatgreenbags, to help me out ,on your remberence wall , you have .

YOUR GRANDFATHER  STANLEY G G VINCE A/CPL  MAN REG
HIS BROTHER           SYDNEY  VINCE  ABL ANSON BN
AND BROTHER            ALFONSE WILLIAM VINCE  1ST SUFFOLK REG K.I.A3-OCT-1915 

alfonse was killed at the battle of loos,

the other alfonse vince , luke vince ,  who are they  related to ? tonyrod
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 25, 2009, 11:29:36 AM
hi harribobs

Thanks very much for the information about the cap badge on the cap my grandfather is wearing - do you have an opinion about which Fusiliers the badge belongs to?  If not any suggestions where I can find out?
  :)
My grandad & his 2 fighting brothers all came from a small village in rural Suffolk.  His elder brother, Alfonso, entered the war in May 1915 (info on medal card) & was killed in October 1915 at Loos in France.  He was in the Suffolk Regiment which makes sense!

My grandads medal card shows no info about his entry into the war but I have been imformed through this forum that he was in the 20th Battalion of the Manchester Regiment & went overseas in 1916.  His medals & medal card definitely have him as a Manchester! 

His younger brother Sydney (from his medal card joined in 1916 - Army Reserve - before being attached to the RNVR Anson Battalion in early 1917) & was killed in October 1917 at Valet Farm in Belgium. 

Could it be that my grandad was in a Fusilier Army Reserve before becoming a Manchester?  I think the photo must have been taken before he went off to fight in 1916 as he looks very proud to be in uniform.

 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 25, 2009, 12:03:22 PM
Hi mack

Luke Vince (13th Manchesters) of 18 Ariele St, Salford isn't a relative - as far as I know!  Can you send me his medal card for the Museum?

From what you have sent me & from what we have discussed so far I would think his brother was definitely Alphonse Vince (12th Manchesters)  - last known at 25 James Henry St, Salford.  Also not a relative as far as I know!  I have his medal card alongside Alfonso's - also for the Museum.

If these 2 Vinces were brothers (with parents Frank & Margaret & another brother, Felix, all resident at 26 Harry St, Ordsall) the Museum of Manchester Regiment will probably want to know more or even set wheels in motion to find out what themselves. 

For example did Felix enter WW1 in a Manchester Regiment?  Do you know & if so can you find & send his medal card to me for the Museum please.

I will definitely go these 3 locations when next in Manchester & will let you know what I find out.  Perhaps we are related so wouldn't that be amazing!!  If more of interest will involve the Salford Forum as you suggest either through me or the Museum.

Through research of my grandad I have contact now with a cousin Tim Vince.  We plan to meet up soon.   Alfonso Vince (my grandfathers elder brother)was his grandfather.  :) :) 

 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 25, 2009, 12:32:45 PM
Hi tonyrod

Hope this reply to mack helps you out?

Hi mack

Luke Vince (13th Manchesters) of 18 Ariele St, Salford isn't a relative - as far as I know!  Can you send me his medal card for the Museum?

From what you have sent me & from what we have discussed so far I would think his brother was definitely Alphonse Vince (12th Manchesters)  - last known at 25 James Henry St, Salford.  Also not a relative as far as I know!  I have his medal card alongside Alfonso's - also for the Museum.

If these 2 Vinces were brothers (with parents Frank & Margaret & another brother, Felix, all resident at 26 Harry St, Ordsall) the Museum of Manchester Regiment will probably want to know more or even set wheels in motion to find out what themselves. 

For example did Felix enter WW1 in a Manchester Regiment?  Do you know & if so can you find & send his medal card to me for the Museum please.

I will definitely go these 3 locations when next in Manchester & will let you know what I find out.  Perhaps we are related so wouldn't that be amazing!!  If more of interest will involve the Salford Forum as you suggest either through me or the Museum.

Through research of my grandad I have contact now with a cousin Tim Vince.  We plan to meet up soon.   Alfonso Vince (my grandfathers elder brother)was his grandfather.     

   
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on January 25, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
cheers its sorted, its with jumping from thread  to thread, and the age thingie  ;D ;D ;D
look forward to seeing it all to gether on your wall. tonyrod
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: harribobs on January 25, 2009, 11:31:57 PM
i would say that is a royal fusiliers badge, it's certainly possible he was in one of their training battalions before being posted to the manchesters, and looking at that photo i would have thought it was an early one
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 26, 2009, 10:08:05 AM
Hi harribobs

I have now established that the cap badge almost certainly belongs to The Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) - Kings Crown Brass.  At the start of WW1 my grandfather was a Tailor in Saville Row so it is highly probable that he joined this regiment as he was working in the City. 

Any chance with your connections that you can find & post an image of this badge please?  I have found one but because of copyright on the image I may not be given permission to post.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on January 26, 2009, 11:12:16 AM
enjoy
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 26, 2009, 11:29:15 AM
hi tonyrod

Thanks for cap badge image. Is it a modern badge for this regiment?

The reason I ask is that if you take a look at the one I've seen on www.arbeia.demon.co.uk (# 50090-A) it looks more old fashioned than this one.  Am trying to get permission to use this image which is subject to copyright.  :)

Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on January 26, 2009, 06:44:59 PM
i am no expert on badges but from the copy i copied its 1914-20,  as for copyright i can not say for certain  but i don't think copyright  is a problem providing its not for personnel gain,   
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 26, 2009, 07:22:01 PM
Thanks tonyrod.

If I can't get the image that has 'copyright all over it' & is not available for down load I will buy the actual badge!  Then it can be photographed & given to the Museum along with the actual photo post card.  :) :)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 27, 2009, 09:09:33 AM
Hi themonstar

You kindly advised my grandfathers Battalion as the 20th & that he went overseas anytime after Jan 1916.  I looked the 20th up on the site & there is no mention of them being at the Somme in 1916.  The 22nd were there & in Italy in 1917.  Is more likely that he was in the 22nd as he did speak of fighting at the Somme & he did finish his war service in Italy in 1917?

As we have a fair indication of his Battalion (1 of 2) are there any other records in existance that will find my grandfather listed in a regiment for certain in 1916 & do you have any links/suggestions for me to investigate please?  Thanks.  :)

Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: Devil Wood on January 28, 2009, 04:14:10 AM
Re the 20th M/c's. Sugest you obtain a copy of Michael Stedman, "Manchester Pals" where the history of the 20th is registered. Should be available at your local Library. On the first day of the Somme the 20th lost their CO killed, 4 captains killed, 6 subalterns killed, 6 other officers casualties, 110 men killed, 29 missing, 171 wounded.
Good luck
Barney
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 28, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
Hi Barney

Thanks for all the info from you 'down under'.  Had wonderful time in SE. Australia & Tasmania a couple of years ago but didn't get to NSW.  :)

Will certainly get the book you suggest but meanwhile I found a piece on the web.  Battle of the Somme - the capture of Fricourt, 1st July 1916.  From this I can see that the 20th Battalion, Manchester Regiment (also known as the 5th City Pals) suffered the casualties as you have stated.  See www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk/battle_report.php?name=01_07_16_ Manchester20

What is interesting to me is that the Battalion was obviously made up from a lot of men from the Stockport area.  I have no idea how my grandfather came to be in the Manchester Regiment & this Battalion when he came from a small village in rural Suffolk, worked in London's Saville Row circa 1914 & started his war service as a Royal Fusilier (City of London Regiment) - see his photo postcard with cap badge on the Forum.  Is there someone out there with this knowledge or a theory?  Could he have been promoted to A-CPL in the Royal Fusiliers & then been transfered to the Manchesters at his request or on someone elses?  From his medal card it would appear the became a 'Manchester' before going over seas in 1916. :) :)
 

Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 28, 2009, 03:06:06 PM
H harribobs

Proof Stanley was a Royal Fusilier before becoming a Manchester!

From THE CHIEF CLERK CITY OF LONDON HQ RRF to me

Hello
Yes - the early picture of your grandad in uniform does show that his cap badge is that of the Royal Fusiliers (The City of London Regiment).
We do not hold individual soldiers documents here.
Those that have survived are held at the National Archives, Kew. They are aslo available online at Ancestry.co.uk (for a fee).
Yours
J Kelleher
Chief Clerk
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: Devil Wood on January 28, 2009, 11:44:10 PM
Hey GBB
YOUR IN THE ARMY NOW, you don't transfer, you get transferred.
My interest in the 20th is that my grandad and a few other blokes in the 21st relieved them in the line south of Delville Wood 29th AUGUST 1916 the day my grandad went down.
Barney.
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 29, 2009, 02:33:23 AM
a great deal of men who had been wounded or sick,were sent to the training reserve after recovering,they belonged to a multitude of different regiments+units.
your grandfathers number,is in a block of numbers,that were for the manchester regiment,many of these men,arrived at the infantry brigade depot,at etaples after the 1st july 1916,to bring the manchester battalions back up to strenghth.
they would not have been posted to a specific battalion,till they arrived in france.
his service record,is the only thing that can answer your question.

mack ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 29, 2009, 09:27:45 AM
your grandfather,was in this batch of reinforcements
44500 stanley nichols
44502 walter,j johnson
44505 alfred hack
44506 levi sherratt
44507 harry,j,j whitehead
44508 james,r wheeler
44509 george,s pearce
44510 STANLEY VINCE
44511 percy north
44512 patrick,joseph murphy
44513 john,e stageman
44514 hugh,frederick eva
44516 harold,frederick castle
44517 john cregg
some of these men,came from the royal fusiliers depot,they were mostly london lads.
they were posted to the 24th infantry brigade at etaples,on 29-6-16,then on 9th july 1916,they were attatched to the 20th manchesters,and joined the battalion,in the field,on 25th oct 1916.

mack ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 29, 2009, 10:05:36 AM
Hi Barney

From 2 posts by mack above you will see that my grandad Stanley was attached to the 20th Bn. on 9th July 1916 & in the field on 25th October 1916.  It would have been great to think that our grandfathers could have met on the 29th August (near Delville Wood) but from the dates this could not have happened.  I am sorry your grandfather was killed in action on that day.  :(

Thanks for all your thoughts/contributions.  :)

Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 29, 2009, 10:23:02 AM
Hi mack

Thanks for the 2 posts.  :)  I now know that my grandad Stanley was not at the Battle of Fricourt on 1st July 1916 - from his arrival at etapleas on 29th June 1916 & his attachment to the 20th Bn. on 7th July 1916 we must assume he was a reinforcement to the Bn. following their battle losses at Fricourt? 

When he was in the field on 25th October 1916 can you briefly tell me what Somme battles he would have fought in?  What Italian  battles were the Bn. involved in 1917?  So I can know about them & try & find out where he might have fought before he was invalided out?

Your knowledge is fantastic so can you post details of his actual service record or where I can access it please?  In particular do you know when he became A-CPL in the 20th Bn?
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 29, 2009, 04:47:32 PM
Hi mack

Thanks for the 2 posts.  :)  I now know that my grandad Stanley was not at the Battle of Fricourt on 1st July 1916 - from his arrival at etapleas on 29th June 1916 & his attachment to the 20th Bn. on 7th July 1916 we must assume he was a reinforcement to the Bn. following their battle losses at Fricourt? 

When he was in the field on 25th October 1916 can you briefly tell me what Somme battles he would have fought in?  What Italian  battles were the Bn. involved in 1917?  So I can know about them & try & find out where he might have fought before he was invalided out?

Your knowledge is fantastic so can you post details of his actual service record or where I can access it please?  In particular do you know when he became A-CPL in the 20th Bn?
ime not too clued up on the battlefield side of things,BUT some of the gang are,they should be along soon.
with regards to his service record,drop monsstar a PM,hes the top lad on our forum at kew.

mack
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on January 29, 2009, 05:44:44 PM
Hi themonsstar

Please see the last post by mack. Can you advise my grandads service record or where to find it?  Also the Somme battles & the Italy battles he fought in?

I'm within touching distance of knowing his full story now - unless something unexpected comes up!!!!

What a fantastic Forum I must say - I wonder if other Regiments are fortunate in having one so good?   :)
 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on January 29, 2009, 09:31:13 PM
Hi themonsstar

Please see the last post by mack. Can you advise my grandads service record or where to find it?  Also the Somme battles & the Italy battles he fought in?

I'm within touching distance of knowing his full story now - unless something unexpected comes up!!!!

What a fantastic Forum I must say - I wonder if other Regiments are fortunate in having one so good?   :)
 
that comment,is the nicest one i have heard about our forum.

thank you
mack ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 04, 2009, 05:22:45 PM
A last post!

A visit to the National Archives at Kew yesterday confirmed all the information so far discovered about my grandad & his WW1 service posted on this forum.  I was fortunate to find his actual War Service Record on microfilm & take a copy.  Although starting his service overseas in October 1916 in the 20th Bn. he actually finished his service in November 1918 in the 22nd Bn.

He was appointed (unpaid) as A.CPL in April 1918 & then in July 1918 he was appointed (paid).  Very generous of those in power!

I also was able to access the War Diaries for both the Manchester Regiment 20th & 22nd Bn.s for the 2 years that cover my grandads service in both & they gave a fascinating insight to his theatre of war.

Have decided to frame my grandads pictures as a Royal Fusilier & a Manchester (together with his cap badges for both Regiments & 4 medals) to pass to my son & my grandsons in due course.  This was following a visit to the Library & Manchester Regiment Museum in Ashton.  Anyone researching as I have done will find these places of real interest too. 

A final thanks to all at the forum who have helped me  :) :) :) :) :) :)
 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tisgrannie on March 05, 2009, 07:41:29 AM
Thank you much for this journey. It was very thoughtful of you to add the conclusion. Its fabulous to see the "whole thing". You have much to pass to your descendents. I am sure they will greatly appreciate the time and effort you have put in. I am sure you have enjoyed the experience. I myself, through the fabulous people on here "Found" my Granddad. It was so fulfilling a feeling   I can't find words to describe it.
I got involved with the site as I felt so comfortable over here! They are such a dedicated bunch of folks and so generous with their time and effort.
Well done
Best wishes
tisgrannie
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 05, 2009, 11:07:19 AM
Hi tisgrannie

Anyone reading this forum story might like to take the advice of Devil Wood which was to read Michael Steadmans book 'The Manchester Pals' as it ties in with the 20th & 22nd Bn. War Diaries.  Having borrowed a Library copy I shall now buy one as it gives vivid accounts of what Manchester soldiers went through in WW1 on the Somme.  I am very proud that my grandfather served for over 2 years in the field because I have also found out that he was actually born with a valve heart defect.  Because of this he was finally invallided out but what courage to volunteer & then fight carrying such a disability!

In Stanleys story I made reference to him being a Tailor in Saville Row (why he enlisted firstly as a Royal Fusilier - City of London Regiment).  From his War Service Record he did indeed work in Saville Row, in Pooles a Tailors Shop, but as a Clerk.  I have also found out that after the War he did not get a War Disability Pension presumably because he was found work on his return to England (to the Suffolk Regiment Depot in Bury St Edmunds) near his family home.  Henry Poole the Tailors still exists so I am in contact with them to see if he went back to work for them.  They were advised by telegram of his disability & it is highly possible they took him back as he went on to qualify as a Chartered Accountant before owning/running the Monks Eleigh Post Office with my grandmother.  Henry Poole & Co. was was started by James Poole in 1806 & by the sound of it they have comprehensive records & great history.  I look forward to more info on my grandad to share with all here if relevant!

I am glad the forum helped you so much with your grandfathers story. 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on March 05, 2009, 11:35:57 AM
A last post!

A visit to the National Archives at Kew yesterday confirmed all the information so far discovered about my grandad & his WW1 service posted on this forum.  I was fortunate to find his actual War Service Record on microfilm & take a copy.  Although starting his service overseas in October 1916 in the 20th Bn. he actually finished his service in November 1918 in the 22nd Bn.

He was appointed (unpaid) as A.CPL in April 1918 & then in July 1918 he was appointed (paid).  Very generous of those in power!

I also was able to access the War Diaries for both the Manchester Regiment 20th & 22nd Bn.s for the 2 years that cover my grandads service in both & they gave a fascinating insight to his theatre of war.

Have decided to frame my grandads pictures as a Royal Fusilier & a Manchester (together with his cap badges for both Regiments & 4 medals) to pass to my son & my grandsons in due course.  This was following a visit to the Library & Manchester Regiment Museum in Ashton.  Anyone researching as I have done will find these places of real interest too. 

A final thanks to all at the forum who have helped me  :) :) :) :) :) :)
 
you really really sound like you enjoyed yourself ;D ime glad his records survived,that alone,was worth your trip to kew.

mack ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R 20th & 22nd Bn's.
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 09, 2009, 06:27:31 PM
More about Stanley - from Angus Cundy of Henry Poole & Co. Saville Row Tailors from 1806 till the present day! 

Note Stanleys payrise in 1919 after his return to work for them.  What a way to double your pay - going overseas to fight for King & Country at the Somme for a couple of years!!  This is why he didn't qualify for a War Pension after WW1 although invallided out.  He was fit enough to resume work in some capacity with his old employer (hence no record of Stanley on Ancestry).  Have asked Angus what Stanley did in his 2 jobs with Pooles & also if they have any images of him for you all to see.  Will post if a reply etc. is received.

Dear Clive,
 
Thank you for your fascinating email concerning Stanley Gilbert Gordon Vince. I have found entries in two employee register books as follows.
 
1893 Book
Stanley G Vince. 43 Cumberland Road, Acton W. Clerk-Packing room. Came 3-2-1913, left for duration of War.
 
1887 Book
Stanley Gilbert Gordon Vince.
3rd February 1913, paid £45-16-0 per year.
16th March 1914, paid £52-0-0 per year.
17th February 1919, paid £107-4-0 per year.
 
On return from Army Service and placed in Counting House. Resigned end March 1919 due to domestic reasons. 10/3/1919, 2 weeks wages + bonus in lieu of notice. 5/11/1919 enquiry of Ministry of Labour as he is applying for a temporary post as sorter in Post Office. 1/6/1920 answered enquires of Reud-Cyril Hudson who requires a care taker for St Mary Abbotts Mission Hall.
 
I found your enquiry of a great coincidence as I am semi retired and live 2 miles from Monks Eleigh. Though difference premise and now also the Village store, the post office is still there.
 
Kind regards,
 
Angus Cundey
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 11, 2009, 04:14:42 PM
More correspondence fron Angus Cundy about Stanleys accountabilities whilst working for H. Poole & Co. Saville Row Tailors - both before & after his WW1 service.

Dear Clive,
 
Whilst in the Packing room, your grandfather would have booked out the garments for delivery or post. In the Counting House he would bill the customers, write up the ledgers and pay the staff.
 
The next time I go to St. Peters, Monks Eleigh I shall look out for the Vince family memorials.
 
Kind regards, Angus

I think Stanley's WW1 story is now complete so this may well definitely be a 'last post'.  Thanks to all of you who have contributed so much  :)

Clive Mabbutt
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: harribobs on March 11, 2009, 09:12:10 PM

a very good thread to boot!  ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 17, 2009, 12:03:06 PM
For those who helped me uncover my Grandad Stanleys story as firstly a Royal Fusilier & finally a Manchester in the 20th & 22nd Bn's.

3 pages of his War Service Record (the most relevant) of 10 held at the NA at Kew!  :)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 18, 2009, 04:14:31 PM
Stanley's 'Theatre of War' whilst at the Somme in the 20th & 22nd Bn's. 
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on March 30, 2009, 02:09:40 PM
Now he will always be remembered!  His story is complete thanks to this forum!! :)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: mack on March 30, 2009, 02:22:57 PM
FANTASTIC.

mack ;D
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on March 30, 2009, 02:37:06 PM
first class result and great to see  , ;D ;D ;D tonyrod
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on April 16, 2009, 04:01:21 PM
Stanley's final resting place with his wife Lillian.  St.Budeaux Church, Plymouth
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tisgrannie on April 16, 2009, 10:47:03 PM
Thank you so much for this terrific journey.
kind regards
tisgrannie
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on July 31, 2009, 01:00:09 PM
On page 3 mack gave info about a batch reinforcements that my grandfather was in when he became a Manchester in 1916. 

A little more research on the CWCG Debt of Honour site shows that 44508 James Wheeler was KIA on 12.4.17, 44511 Percy North was KIA on 14.10.17, 44514 Hugh Eva was KIA on 6.5.17 & John Cregg was KIA on 10.1017.  The site gives info about the cemeteries or memorials where they are buried/remembered.   :(

My grandfather must have known & fought with all these men?!  Hopefully, the 9 others mentioned survived WW1 like my grandfather  :) - unless any of you know differently? 
     
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: tonyrod on July 31, 2009, 02:50:27 PM



HI,GREATBEANBAGS,   a lot as been found on your grandfather, and for me its been great  seeing that the info is out there  and the time spent getting it all together makes it all worth while,  i have over the week , after almost 2 years  searching myself, and thanks to
roy , themonsstar,  found my grandfather was in the 20th battalion  also,  and about the same time,
so you never know they too could have known each other ,i would be interested in seeing any info you have from kew on the 20th bn.    cheers, tonyrod

link, some info on my family and friends
http://www.freewebs.com/tonyrod/

Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: Devil Wood on August 01, 2009, 10:09:12 AM
Wow, this is what i call a great story. When you write the book I will be first to buy a signed copy. Sugest you get stuck into it and don't waste it. Like I said great stuff.
Barney
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on August 01, 2009, 10:34:58 AM
Hi Barney

Uncovering Stanleys story has been fascinating & thoroughly enjoyable for me as his grandson.  I did know him & have fond memories of him as a young boy - he died when I was 15.

It isn't me writing the book - it is Paul Kendall - see topic Battle of Bullecourt May 1917 currently on page 2 of the 1914 -1918 section of this forum.  Paul will be including a piece about Stanley & images of him in his book as he would have fought at Bullecourt in the 20th Bn.   I want to get a a signed copy of it as well!  Paul if you read this please tell the forum when it is published & no doubt you will sell or have to give away several copies!!

Clive  
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on August 14, 2009, 09:38:10 PM
I can now complete my grandfathers story with this final posting about his theatre of war.

This is thanks to a 1994 first edition of Michael Stedmans book the Manchester Pals.

In this he states that both the 20th & 22nd Bn's were in action at the Third Battle of Ypes, Gheluvelt, October 1917 & then they both spent the bulk of 1918 in Italy.  It was a quiet time until the 20th Bn. returned to France to persue the retreating German Army in October/November 1918 & the 22n Bn. were involved in the crossing of the River Paive in October 1918.  My grandfather started his service in the 20th Bn. but finished it in the 22nd Bn.

Both Bn's were in action at the 1916 Battles of the Somme, the 1917 Battles at the Hindenburg lines, the 1917 Third Battle of Ypes & in the 1918 Italian Campaign.  In this period the 20th Bn. suffered 644 fatalities & the 22nd Bn. 623 fatalities.

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE WHO HAS HELPED ME WITH MY JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY  :)  

      
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on September 14, 2009, 01:19:06 PM
My grandfathers death certificate has been passed to me - posted for interest perhaps?

It is amazing he lived for over 50 years with heart problems brought about by 2 years or more of fighting on the Somme & in Italy with the Manchesters.  He even served for over 9 years as a Special Constable between the Wars.  It's great my family now know so much about his story.  :)
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: harribobs on September 15, 2009, 11:16:29 PM
well done for making the effort to find out and preserve his memory
Title: Re: 44510 A. CPL. Stanley.Gilbert .Gordon. VINCE - MANC.R
Post by: 1954gladiator on December 01, 2014, 07:47:09 PM
A ceramic poppy from the November 2014 Tower of London commemoration now graces my WW1 display. My Manchester serving grandfather survived as did my wife's Essex serving grandfather. 2 of my grandfathers brothers were KIA in WWI, Alponso Vince at Loos in 1915 in the Suffolk Reg & Sydney Vince at Varlet Farm near Passchendaele in 1917 in the RNVR.