The Manchester Regiment Forum
The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: harribobs on April 17, 2008, 12:24:51 AM
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many thanks to Kingo, he's just posted a harrowing account from the of the court of enquiry into the events of 15th may 1916
http://www.themanchesters.org/A%20Place%20to%20shelter.html (http://www.themanchesters.org/A%20Place%20to%20shelter.html)
this page now links within the 18th battn history on the main site
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a service was read over these men,by the reverend h.a thomson and their burial recorded.
chris/andy.
is it possible to find the exact place of this mine shaft.
its just a thought,but if the location can be found,the CWGC may accept it as a war grave.
the official report that andy found,should be enough evidence to support a claim for recognition.
mack
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Mack-i had the same thought. There must be a trench map that shows the location of the sap and if it could be overlayed onto a modern map it might be able to identify the spot. I am off to Ypres in a couple of weeks and i am going down to the Somme for a days flying visit so i might go to the area and have a look From what i read, it is in the area of the Peronne Road cemetery just outside Maricourt. I was there last year and the land is open farmland that drops away into the Somme Valley and the village of Suzanne.You never know, the trench lines might be visible in the fields as long as the crops aren't up. I will add it to my ever expanding list of things to do on that day !.
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andy.
why not post this on the GWF,let some of the battlefield experts like paul reed have a go at the location.
mack
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andy.
did you notice that peter ford+john grice had been renumbered,i cant figure out why these two men had their numbers changed.
both men didnt go to france till the 23-12-15,neither had been previously wounded/sick
peter fords orig number was 11331
john grice orig number was 11323
they are not in the m/c book of honour because they were with the reserve company[25th batt]
mack
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Hadn't noticed that mack. i will pull their records-if they are available and see if there is anything in them to explain why.
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Mack-i have found another Board of inquiry document relating to the 30 men who were injured on the 29th June and the 1 man killed ( L/cpl JohnAnderson Frankish). Many of the injured probably never took part in the "Great Day" so it probably saved their lives. There are 30 witness statements describing what happened-yet they still couldn't come to a conclusion (i.e blame someone). I will try and write it up over the weekend.
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Mack-No explanation in their records as to why they were re-numbered. Both men Embarked 24/12/15 at Folkestone and arrived at Etaples the next day joining the battalion 26/02/16. Both mens medals were issued with the new numbers ???. The only difference in the two men was that Peter Grice was awarded 2 Days Confined to barracks at Rees heath on 7/11/1915 for " Improper use of the wash house" ???- They were hard on them in them days :) !.
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Hadn't noticed that mack. i will pull their records-if they are available and see if there is anything in them to explain why.
there are records for both of them,also ptes brierley,daniel and deakin
mack
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Mack-No explanation in their records as to why they were re-numbered. Both men Embarked 24/12/15 at Folkestone and arrived at Etaples the next day joining the battalion 26/02/16. Both mens medals were issued with the new numbers ???. The only difference in the two men was that Peter Grice was awarded 2 Days Confined to barracks at Rees heath on 7/11/1915 for " Improper use of the wash house" ???- They were hard on them in them days :) !.
you aint allowed to wash your horse in the wash house ;D ;D
mack
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"Neigh Lad"-you cant do that-get that animal out of there ;D
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Oh-and by the way-your'e on a charge
What for ?
Horsing around ;D ;D ;D
Ok-no more horse related jokes ;D
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andy.
theres a few discrepancies on the CWGC.
they list pte howarth as dying on 11-5-16
pte deakin as 13th battalion
ptes brierley+webster as dying on 13-5-16
mack
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I wiil have a look tonight-all the records are there except Pte Websters. Errors on CWGC-who would of thought it :).
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I wiil have a look tonight-all the records are there except Pte Websters. Errors on CWGC-who would of thought it :).
the report you found,should be enough to get the details corrected.
mack
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Do you think so ? .I will send you the documents if you want to have a look-they are on my home pc so i will send them tonight if you want. If it all checks out i will email the CWGC and see what happens.
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Do you think so ? .I will send you the documents if you want to have a look-they are on my home pc so i will send them tonight if you want. If it all checks out i will email the CWGC and see what happens.
its an official document andy,it should be enough to correct their details.
mack
ps terry denham will advise you best.
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Mack-you got mail-and attachments :)
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Mack-you got mail-and attachments :)
what mail/att andy.
have you sent something.
there nothing in my mail box
mack ;D
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I sent it to your btinternet.com address ?-Is it still valid ?
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pte joe daniel was one of the original salford pals.
pte 10868 joseph daniel
15th lancs fusiliers
parents joseph+eliza
32 augustus st,brooks bar
worked for white,wilson+co,whitworth st,m/c
posted to 18th manchesters as pte 11253 and went to france with them,on 18-11-15.
his brother james was in the same battalion.
mack
ps.i have josephs picture ;D
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Mack-I had a good look round the area where the mine shaft will be, last week. The crops have started to grow so it was not easy to spot anything.Looks like i will have to go back again next year ;). How about a look at his picture Mack ?-go on-i will be your best mate ;D
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Mack-I had a good look round the area where the mine shaft will be, last week. The crops have started to grow so it was not easy to spot anything.Looks like i will have to go back again next year ;). How about a look at his picture Mack ?-go on-i will be your best mate ;D
i will send you a copy andy.
mack ;D
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Cheers "best mate" ;D
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Did anyone get a definitive answer of where the possible shaft/sap was?
Reading the descriptions, it appears, to me, to be the "S Works" in, what is now the Garenne de Treize. ("Peronne Road" in the description may be a little misleading, BTW, as ,along the road to Peronne (!) there was a trench named "Peronne Road" which split into "peronne Rd North Ave" and "Peronne Road South Ave" so I believe that the events must have taken place south of this trench before the split (but still SE of Maricourt) - this can only lead directly to...."S Works" and it's associated saps.)
Dave
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Dave, It was on my list of things "to do" when i was over there last month but due to the fact i only had a day (We were staying in Ypres) and the Brother in laws dodgy map reading skills it took longer to get there than expected. If a trench map exists for the area, maybe it could be overlayed on the modern map and it might give a few clues. I am going back there next year and hope to walk the area between Suzanne/Fargny mill and Maricourt and see what, if anything remains.
Andy
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Was that a "hint", Andy? ;D
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...and a modern IGN map with the exact locations of "S Works" and associated saps...
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...same overlay on modern aerial photograph...
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...S System overlay in relation to the frontlines of April 1916...
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Not noted for my subtlety Dave ;D
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Dave, Reading through Lt Salmons statement to the Board of inquiry again, he states " I was in charge of A.23.1 at about 8.30 and was summoned to a mine in A.23.2.. On looking at the trench map there appears to be an A.23.2 at the end of King Street opposite Y wood. Could this be it ?. Incidentally,i like the way they recreated the centre of Manchester in the street names in a foreign field. It must have seemed like walking to work to them.
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Lt Salmons statement is attached:-
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I was in charge of A.23.1 at about 8.30 and was summoned to a mine in A.23.2.. On looking at the trench map there appears to be an A.23.2 at the end of King Street opposite Y wood. Could this be it ?.
Certainly is. They are trench references - used before the naming of trenches became popular and continued in use afterwards to pinpoint specific points in trenches without using map references.
Dave.
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Dave-it will have to wait until next year but i intend to walk that whole area. From what i remember, most of the ground from the Albert-Peronne Rd down to Fargny Mill is farming land but there may still be signs of the trenches. Hopefully the airport will be up and running by then. (It will be cheaper to fill an aircraft by then than my car ;D.)
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sgt greatbanks who was awarded the MM for his actions that day,didnt survive the war.
sgt george,henry greatbanks
enl 24-3-18
aged 24
worked at richard johnson+nephew
married miss ada,alice wardle,on 2-8-1913
daughter alice,born 4-12-14
resided at 21 grayson st,clayton
later moved to 91 malcolm st,clayton
disembarked 8-11-15
invalided home on 15-11-17
discharged as physically unfit 27-2-18
attended a medical,at huddersfield war hospital,on 7-2-18
died 21-5-18
buried in phillips park cemetery[he was only 27yrs old]
MM awarded for bravery in the field,LG supplement 10-8-16
mack
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From what i remember, most of the ground from the Albert-Peronne Rd down to Fargny Mill is farming land but there may still be signs of the trenches.
It certainly is (as can be seen from this aerial and also from Google earth) with the nearest point being exactly a quarter of a mile from the nearest road or track (perfect shootin' land for the french farmers! :D). I'm making a point of visiting the memorial on the Peronne road (exactly north of these points - you can just see it at the top of the attachment in the square hedge) in a couple of weeks so I may have a quick glance (though I think that the area is obscured from the road by trees). I'd expect that there are remnants of the German defences in the woods still, but wouldn't be as hopeful about the survival of any British evidence.
Dave
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Dave. If you go on google earth and look at the area there appears to be have been a motocross track constructed in the area of Les Bruyeres. I assume google maps is more up to date than the michelin map as it can be quite clearly seen. It appears to reach down as far as La Garenne Belle Vue. I was in Maricourt back in May and im sure i saw something about it in the little estaminet on the road between Maricourt and Montauban.It should keep the local youth occupied but will no doubt shatter the peace and quiet of the area.