The Manchester Regiment Forum
The Great War => 1914 - 1918 => Topic started by: Jim on April 06, 2010, 12:51:42 PM
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Hello everybody,
This is my first post on the Forum.
I have a particular interest in the 20th Battalion as my grandfather served with them. I am working on a database of 20th soldiers, from the Book of Honour and the Soldiers Died cd. Am I duplicating work which has already been done?
Regarding Gary's query, I have a copy of the War Diary upto 1 July 1916 and I have produced a daily itinerary and a map showing the route to the front at Fricourt where the 20th were from Jan 1916 to July 1916. I would be happy to share this with Gary and any other members.
Nice to be in contact with people having similar interests.
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Hi Jim
Welcome to the site, it would be better to repost what you have done on its own posting.
Cheers MS
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hi jim
i have split this post out as MS suggested
we are certainly interested in the work you have done on the 20th battalion, we have tried to produce battalion histories for all the battalions but the 20th's is not very good, we haven't had the time to re-do it yet.
http://www.themanchesters.org/20th%20batt.htm (http://www.themanchesters.org/20th%20batt.htm)
so if there is any way we could assist you and you thought this would be the best way to publish your work on the net ;D ;D
cheers
chris
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Hi Jim
Welcome to the site
Thanks Jim i would be very grateful to receive any information you can share with me about the 20th Battalion .I am only just learning about my grandfathers military life if i ever asked him about WW1 he would change subject and not talk about it.
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Hello everybody,
This is my first post on the Forum.
I have a particular interest in the 20th Battalion as my grandfather served with them. I am working on a database of 20th soldiers, from the Book of Honour and the Soldiers Died cd. Am I duplicating work which has already been done?
Regarding Gary's query, I have a copy of the War Diary upto 1 July 1916 and I have produced a daily itinerary and a map showing the route to the front at Fricourt where the 20th were from Jan 1916 to July 1916. I would be happy to share this with Gary and any other members.
Nice to be in contact with people having similar interests.
hiya jim.
welcome to the forum,nobody has made a start on the 20th battalion,if you need anything,post it on here
mack ;D
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hi jim, and welcome to the forum, my grandfather was in the 20th but did not join them till late 1916 or 17,
my family site with a little of his war service history, http://tonyrod.webs.com/ .
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Hello Everybody
Thanks for the replies. As promised in my first post I attach a copy of the list I drew up of the daily movements of the 20th Battalion from the end of Dec 1915 to the End of June 1916. I have included the list of KIA from the War Diary and the names of soldiers died from the CWGC web site. I have a map marked up with the movements upto June 30th 1916, which I can e-mail to anybody interested.
Regards
Jim
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Jim
excellent
unfortunately i am away from home at the moment (and for the next two weeks) but i will be able to convert this into a web page and post it on the main site as soon as i am home
if you need any help, shout!! ;D
cheers
chris
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That is very good. Well done. T
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Nice work Jim ! Thank you for sharing it with us.
Wendi :)
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12-1-16
pte 17865 tom,william curvis,101 exeter st,ardwick
2-2-16
L/cpl 17039 joseph carruthers,23 crown st,cockermouth
6-2-16
pte 26107 patrick kelly,23 iron st,newton heath
pte 17706 alfred morrow,16 little peter st,hulme
22-2-16
Lt john laithwaite,elmhurst,hall lane,hindley,wigan[killed by a rifle grenade]
pte 18356 herbert,bailey woods,51 bellew st,ardwick,killed by a shell,the reverend milner of the 2nd warwicks reported his grave location at maple redoubt
26-2-16
sgt 17340 simon dunn,29 worsley rd,patricroft,died of wounds in hospital at rouen
mack ;D
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William Edward Barber - Killed in action 1st July 1916
Private William Barber (Service no. 17287) served with the 20th (Service) Battalion (5th City), The Manchester Regiment, 22nd Brigade, 7th Division. The battalion was raised in Manchester on 8th November 1914 and had basic training at Morecambe, before moving to Grantham in April 1915 and then onto Lark Hill for further training. He served with 5 Platoon, ‘B’ Company.
He was employed at the CWS Soap Works and had been the secretary of Irlam Conservative Club. He was the only son of Mr and Mrs Edward Barber of 544 Liverpool Road, Irlam. His father was one of the first and oldest workmen of the Irlam Urban District Council until his retirement in 1916. William was a promoter of the Brackley Habitation Primrose League and had a large circle of friends.
William enlisted at Manchester in 1914 and disembarked in France on 9th to marry his sweetheart, Florence Hampson of the Fleece Hotel, Leigh, on 7th June 1916. Florence was accompanied by Miss Butterworth of the Boathouse Hotel, Eccles and Mr H. Mills of Glebe Farm, Irlam. Florence was the niece of Mr Hampson of Peel Hill, Astley who was manager of Leigh Brewery and Managing Director of the November 1915. Whilst serving in France, he obtained special leave back to England in order Mather Lane Mills. William and Florence made their home at 536 Liverpool Road, Irlam.
Sadly only three weeks after the wedding, William was killed in action on Saturday, 1st July 1916, aged 28. A comrade, Corporal Andrew Royle (19245), who was also from the district, wrote to the family stating that William had been severely wounded in the attack, on Fricourt, and he was shot dead by a sniper as he made his way back to an Advanced Dressing Station.
In a letter to his widow, another comrade stated that they had entered into action at about 8.30am and William fell mortally wounded within the first half an hour of the battle: ‘He was greatly respected by his comrades who mourned his loss. He was always very cheerful and obliging and fell doing his duty like a true British soldier.’ He is buried at Dantzig Alley British Cemetery near Mametz, Somme, France. Medal Entitlement: 15 Star Trio.
Serving with William Barber in the 20th Battalion were his friends, Sergeant Ernest Beswick (17295) and Privates James Coyle (17325), Hubert Wright (32438), John Taylor (13604), George Scott (17479), Arthur Oldham (17447), Alf Rogerson (17473), and William Furness (17351) and James Taylor (17503).
William Furness
Private William Furness (Service no. 17351) served with the 20th (Service) Battalion (5th City), The Manchester Regiment, 22nd Brigade, 7th Division.
Like his friend, William Barber, William was killed in action on the first day of the Battle of the Somme, Saturday, 1st July 1916. He is buried in Dantzig Alley British Cemetery, Mametz. Medal Entitlement: 15 Star Trio.
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Hi Mack
thanks for the biographical details which I have added to my database. One of them raises an anomally which I had seen before. Herbert Bailey Woods is given as 18356 in SD and on the MI. He is 18365 in the CWGC web site. Do you have a view as to which is most likely to be correct? Herbert was not listed in the BOH, at least in the 20th. Do you know if he was in any of the other battalions?
I noticed when starting my database that the BOH, not surprisingly, has a number of errors, where names are spelt wrongly and wrong numbers are given. In these cases on the database I have retained both versions, so that a search on either the correct data or the BOH version will locate the individual.
Thanks for your help.
Jim
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hiya jim.
ime pretty sure his correct number is 18356,i cant think why hes not in the BOH,i found a few that were missing as well,its probably an error when they typed up the lists.
i have details of other 20th men,do you want them
mack ;D
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Hi Mack
I would be pleased to have any details you have 20th soldiers. My database runs to 1704 names so far and I only have biographical details of very few.
I still need to check on the fate of those soldiers from the 20th who were wounded, recovered and were transferred to another regiment, which happened to my grandfather. The only way I can think is to check the MICs for each one on my list, not an easy task. Can you suggest any alternative source of the data? Similarly there will be soldiers who transferred to the 20th from other regiments or battalions and who survived the war.
Thanks for your help.
Regards
Jim
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hiya jim,i wish i could tell you an alternative way of finding your lads,but there isnt one,theres no problem with those who died because you have a list from soldiers died,but there are no lists for men who were transferred to the 20th and survived the war.
mack ;D
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hi jim, sept 28-30/aug 1916 AROUND GINCHY most were 20th bn,
ATKINSON EDWARD Lance Corporal 17545 28/08/1916 Unknown Manchester Regiment
UK Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
STANSFIELD GEORGE DICKSON Private 17227 28/08/1916 age 21 Manchester Regiment
UK I. A. 32. DERNANCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
DAVENPORT RALPH Private 26689 29/08/1916 age 26 Manchester Regiment
UK Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
COWBURN , ANDREW Corporal 17593 29/08/1916 age 25 Manchester Regiment
UK Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
CLEWS , ALBERT VICTOR Private 26703 29/08/1916 age19 Manchester Regiment
UK Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
SAINTER ARTHUR Private 18457 29/08/1916 unknown Manchester Regiment
UK Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
HYDE FREDERICK Private 17937 29/08/1916 age 20 Manchester Regiment
UK III. G. 45. HEILLY STATION CEMETERY, MERICOURT-L'ABBE
WAGSTAFF ARNOLD CLIFFORD Lance Corporal 17783 29/08/1916 age 22 Manchester Regiment
UK I. B. 34. DERNANCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
awarded M.M. 20th Battalion Manchester Regiment
‘C’ Company Platoon XII
UNWIN , I Private 12921 29/08/1916 age 50 Manchester Regiment
UK XXXII. D. 1. CATERPILLAR VALLEY CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL
joined 20th manchesters[D.coy] on 18-5-16 from the 19th
DELANEY , E L Lance Corporal 18197 30/08/1916 Unknown Manchester Regiment
UK III. G. 63. HEILLY STATION CEMETERY, MERICOURT-L'ABBE
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hiya jim.
these are the casualties for march
11th march
17391 arthur johnson,rosamond st,hulme,son of arthur+emily,aged 19
14th march
18397 william mowatt,82 hinde st,moston[D coy]son of henry,james+ellen,aged 21,died of shell wounds
his brother 17990 sydney bland mowatt[D coy] died of wounds on 16th july 1916,aged 24
17977 fred wallwork millington,125 eccles old rd,pendleton,son of carl+ellen
he was carried down to the aid post by one of the stretcher bearers pte 17105 john hallows,he was complaining of stomach pains,when they stripped him,all they found was a hole in his leg which they patched up,he died shortly,the medical officer later found that a piece of shrapnel had gone up his anus without leaving a mark on him
15th march
17885 herbert fallowfield,38 moston lane,harpurhey,son of william,henry+elizabeth,aged 21
25th march
18172 george dixon,of manchester
17621 arthur firth,24 collyhurst st,manchester,wife clara,son of john+mary,aged 27,killed by shell fire
17627 john foulkes,85 teighmouth st,rochdale rd,manchester,aged 26,killed by shell fire
27th march
17465 bertram pybus[B coy]115 bedford st,hulme[parents thomas+mary,wife annie 21 lavender st,hulme,aged 25,killed by shell fire
29th march
18066 james wilkinson,439 ashton old rd,openshaw,died of wounds at mericourt
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Thanks everybody who replied and particularly Mack and Tonyrod who sent me details of several soldiers.
Mack
Your list of February casualties was interesting as it included Lt Laithwaite who signed my grandad's Attestation Certificate and I think was his Platoon commander.
The March list includes the two people, apart from grandad who stimulated my interest. Arthur Firth and John Foulkes were friends of grandads, who lived at 166 Teignmouth St in 1901/1911. His story of their death (from my mother) was that they were together and being shelled. When they decided to move they went one way and grandad went the opposite. They were both killed by the next shell. There is an account of the death of Arthur Firth in the April 4 1916 Manchester Evening News, which reports that he was killed with three comrades when a shell hit their dugout. Arthur lived at 13 Ryder St and left a widow and two children. Ryder St joins Teignmouth St, which joins Collyhurst St, all within a radius of 150 yards. There is one KIA missing in your list. Arthur Bayes 17554 is given in SD as 25 March 1918, but in CWGC as 25 March 1916. There is a newspaper report confirming 25 March 1916. He was 17 at the time so probably underaged when he enlisted. He worked at Tootal Broadhurst Lee
Tonyrod
I have entered your grandad on my database. He is a case in point of those I have so far missed, a soldier who was transferred to the 20th battalion and survived the war. So he is not in the 20th BOH or SD, which are the sources for my database. It was great to have the photo of him to add to my file.
Can anybody tell me how the regimental numbers were allocated? there seems to be an element of batches in alphabetical order. I would have thought the lads lined up and were enlisted in random order so there should be no pattern. Incidentally my mother thought that grandad met his friends when they enlisted, because their names all began with F, Firth, Foulkes and Furphy and their numbers were 17621, 17627 and 17629. At the time they joined up she was only about 5 and they had moved to Harrowby St, so she probably did not remember that they had previously been neighbours.
Thanks again for the help.
Regards
Jim
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20th Bn Casualties on 1st July 1916:
Officers Killed: Lieut Colonel H Lewis,
Captains G B Sayce, J V White, D W Smith (RAMC).
Lieutenant H Lomas, 2nd Lieutenants JW Easton, H Lord, T Kemp, FS Brooks & F G Ross.
Officers wounded:Captain W B Bagshaw, Lieutenants B J Denton-Thompson,
R Bowley, 2nd Lieutenants A C Blench, E K Agnew, A G N Dixey (Slightly)
Other ranks: Killed 110 Wounded 171 Missing 29
17423 Sergeant E E May appointed to commission and assumed duties as 2nd Lieutenant 4th July 1916.
Major E Smalley arrived as reinforcement from Base on the afternoon of 3rd July 1916.
The following awards were later made for gallant conduct in the action of 1st July: Major F Bryant & Lieutenant Denton-Thompson - Military Cross.
17387 Private F Ingle and 17524 Private H P Worland - Distinguished Conduct Medal.
1888417 Lance Corporal F Barnes - Military Medal.
Robert
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hi jim, my grandfather was not transferred into the Manchester's, he was was discharged under age from the Cheshire regiment 2/6/1916 from Salonika, he then signed up again underage into the Manchester regiment 79184 20th bn then at some stage transferred into the devonshire regiment no/ 066 . his war records in the Cheshire reg can be viewed on ancestry,
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Hi Jim
You will find full details of my grandfather - 44510 A-Cpl Stanley Gilbert Gordon Vince Man R 20th & 22nd Bn's in this forum with images, war service record copies etc. etc. He was also at Bullecourt, The 3rd Battle of Ypes, Gheluvelt, Polygon Wood & Broodseinde. He finished his service in the 22nd Bn. in Italy.
You are welcome to use any info posted here. PM me if you need help with other things. Finally see all my posts as there is much info about other 20th Bn. soldiers who joined the 20th Bn as reinforcements following Fricourt.
Clive
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Hi Clive
Thanks for the note and for the information about your grandfather and other 20th soldiers, which I have put on my database. Where did you get the list of those who joined the 20th after Fricourt?
Regards
Jim
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Hi Jim
Below is the post/list - kindly supplied by 'mack' global moderator who has a wealth of knowledge! He might find you more details of 20th Bn. soldiers. In Michael Stedmans book Manchester Pals ' 1994' 1st edition published by Leo Cooper there is a comprehensive list of military honours & medal awards to Manchester soldiers from all Bn.s - there are many 20th Bn men who were rewarded for their heroism there from memory.
'your grandfather,was in this batch of reinforcements
44500 stanley nichols
44502 walter,j johnson
44505 alfred hack
44506 levi sherratt
44507 harry,j,j whitehead
44508 james,r wheeler
44509 george,s pearce
44510 STANLEY VINCE
44511 percy north
44512 patrick,joseph murphy
44513 john,e stageman
44514 hugh,frederick eva
44516 harold,frederick castle
44517 john cregg
some of these men,came from the royal fusiliers depot,they were mostly london lads.
they were posted to the 24th infantry brigade at etaples,on 29-6-16,then on 9th july 1916,they were attatched to the 20th manchesters,and joined the battalion,in the field,on 25th oct 1916'
Best wishes
Clive
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Hi Jim
I'm delighted to see someone is working on the 20th Manchesters, as my grandfather and one of his brothers served in it - and both survived the war, along with a younger brother who was in 19th and 1/7th.
The diary was really interesting - many thanks for that. I hadn't realised that the 20th had spent so much time at Fricourt before 1 July 1916.
My Grandfather was William Browne Bagshaw - one of the officers mentioned earlier as having been wounded on 1 July. He was married on 9 June, and enjoyed a two-day honeymoon in London, so obviously had a brief time away from Fricourt just before the attack.
All the information I have found out about his war service so far, from officer files etc, is here http://www.angelabird.plus.com/wbbagshaw.htm
He was invalided back to England on 3 July, being wounded in the shoulder.
After that, William was with the 2/9th Manchesters, so presumably of less interest to you.
His brother Horace Stanley Bagshaw was also an officer in the 20th. He is mentioned in Stedman's "Manchester Pals" book for his action in The Rectangle on 1 July, with Lt Dixey. He carried on with the battalion into the winter of 1916; returned to England in mid-December 1916 where he was hospitalised off and on until into 1918. His MC was gazetted on 1 Jan 1917.
Here's my page on him: http://www.angelabird.plus.com/hsbagshaw.htm
Horace rejoined the 20th in France in October 1918, at Le Cateau; was wounded in the elbow on 23 October, and returned to England where he was in hospital until well into 1920.
He went to Canada in 1923, and died in Vancouver in 1927. (I visited his grave there last summer.)
I shall keep an eye on your project with great interest.
Angela
PS
An Australian called Phil Baker was interested in some aspect of the 20th. He gave me some information about Horace Bagshaw, and I think he had researched Dixey and some of the other officers. I might have his contact details somewhere.
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Thanks Angela
I have added to my database the additional information on your grandfather and great uncle. I had them down from the Book of Honour, and surmised that they were related. It was good to be able to add their christian names, and the fact that they both survived the war.
My grandfather was wounded on 1st July and arrived in the UK on 5 July. I wonder if he met or new your grandfather and great uncle. Unfortunately my grandfathers movements after 5 July are incomplete and although I have a list of battalions in which he served I have not been able as yet to tie down the dates of his movements. He was wounded and returned home a further three times so his record is a bit complicated, as well as being incomplete. Thank you for the links to your web pages. I was most impressed with them. I would not know where to start on producing something similar. Would you mind if I used your photographs of them, for my work on the 20th?
I have been in contact with Phil Baker and met him a couple of years ago when he visited Manchester. We have exchanged information and I should say I think I have had more from Phil than he has had from me. The diary of movements and overnight stops was taken from the War Diary and I plan to complete it for the rest of the 20th history.
Thanks again for the information.
Regards
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Yes, Billy and Horace signed up in the same queue; their numbers are almost consecutive. I remember my grandfather well, as he was still alive till I was about 30. Of course, he never talked about the war.
I'm glad you liked the pages. I really did them as a repository for all the information I had gathered from the Officer files at Kew, and so that the relatives in Vancouver (descendents of the third brother, Ken) could keep up with what I had found out. I stayed with some of the Vancouver Bagshaws last autumn; Ken's son was telling me how he used to have the two WWI handguns of his father and Horace, but once he himself had children, about 30 years ago, he decided it was time to hand the guns in to the police.
Of course, do feel free to use any of the pictures. I might have a higher-resolution scan somewhere of the group shot, if you wanted that. I have used a very low-res one for the website.
That must be frustrating, not being able to pinpoint your grandfather's movements. Once I found the files at the NA, I realised that my three guys had survived the war largely because they had been out of it, wounded, so much! Though when they were in it, they seemed to have been pretty valiant, judging from their MCs. So you have no idea when your grandfather was returned to the fray?
Phil Baker gave me the most marvellous boost with Horace Bagshaw. He contacted me from this forum, with the information that Horace had sailed back from Australia to join up! None of us had any idea that he had ever been to Australia, so it was fascinating to know.
Keep up the good work on the 20th! I look forward to reading more.
Kind regards
Angela
PS I did download the 20ths' war diary for the period around the battles at Le Cateau in which Horace was involved in 1918. Let me know if you'd like me to email them to you.
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Thanks again Angela
It will be good to use your photos of your granfather and great uncle. If you have a high resolution photo of the group shot I would really like to have a copy. I have a copy of the Book of Honour, but the photographs in that are newsprint type of quality. Did you get the group photograph from some other source?
I still have to do some work on my grandfather's record, I have the dates he was in France and home, but I cannot read the record of the battallion he was sent to. I know he was in other battalions and also that at some time he returned to the 20th. he always considered himself a Manchester Pal from the 20th Battalion. I would be pleased if anybody could suggest a way of investigating further.
I would be pleased if you could send me any parts of the war diary you have. I have the period from Dec 1915 to 1 July 1916.
Regards
Jim
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Jim
Have sent you a PM
Angela
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HI JIM, found on ebay,
These medals are a British War and Victory medal pair awarded to
26658 Private James Turner, 20th (Service) Battalion (5th City) Manchester Regiment.
The copy medal index card and silver war badge which are included in this lot shows that
Jim enlisted in November 1915. After training he would have joined his battalion
sometime in 1916 possibly just before are after the 1st July the date that has gone down
in the history of the British army as the single most costly day.
Between the 1st and 3rd July, 5th City alone lost 326 soldiers killed including their
Commanding Officer, Lt Col H Lewis. Jim soldiered on until being discharged on the
27th June 1917 suffering from the effects of wounds he had received for this he was
awarded S.W.B. No. 226209. At the time of his discharge he was living at 26 Granville
Street, Regent Road, Salford, Manchester.
Item number: 180518841174
Item location: Suffolk, United Kingdom
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Hi Tony
Thanks for the information on James Turner. He is one of probably hundreds I have missed off my database, that is those who were not in the Book of Honour, because they joined the battalion after the photographs were taken, and survived the war so they do not appear on Soldiers Died or the CWGC web site. Can you suggest any source for these names? Maybe I could look at the Medal Rolls? I am going to National Archives in early July so I will have a look. I will also see if James Turner's records have survived.
Regards
Jim
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hi jim, i am sorry i cannot suggest any source for these names, the medal roll will not help if a soldier was transferred into the 20th you need the name first, i will pass on any i find to you. tonyrod