The Manchester Regiment Forum
POW User Group => POW WW1 section => Topic started by: charlie on January 10, 2015, 08:03:07 AM
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Please post any amendments or additions you have here.
Thanks
Charlie
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Really good work Charlie,
The database continues to develop as a great resource.
A few items I've spotted for your next update:-
1. SDGW confirms John William Austin's original 20975 number was Royal Berks R. (He will have been part of the draft of @ 70 men I've found from Service Records that were posted from RBR to 17th Bttn on 11th July 1916, prior to the Guilemont action. The surviving men incl JW Austin were transferred on 1st Sept.)
2. Please add my Grandad's cousin Alfred - you helped work out his record. http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7758.msg52975#msg52975 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7758.msg52975#msg52975)
3. Norman Crichton held a MM. Gazette 30/1/1920 (Poss associated with his escape)
Cheers
Tim
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Thanks for the info and comments Tim.
Have you tried expanding your search on the ICRC site, the more I use it the more I think it was digitised in a hurry using a different alphabet than I learned at school. Two examples out of many:
The name Ball is under Bell.
Benton is partly under Bentlon and the rest under Benton.
Charlie
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;D
I think ICRC say the alphabet is phonetic. Manchester is Middlesex! Ridge is hidden somewhere too and I've wondered if there may be second sets of the same names. Have you found this?
I get the impression some of the longer schedules of POWs are not necessarily cross-refd with or referred to on cards. Is this the case?
Despite challenging indexing this data is great. It's certainly kept you busy...
Tim
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I have certainly found on more than one occassion 2 or 3 different spellings of a name all refering to the same person, and also 2 or more index cards correctly spellt for the same person but in different places within the batch.
As for the cross referencing I don't know, as I am working from the reference cards rather than the other way round. Some reference numbers lead nowhere, despite being within the given parameters.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
number 128 on the database.r.bardsley wasn't a Manchester,he was in the 2/5th lancs fusiliers
mack ;D
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I'd asked for my Grandfather CH Martin to be added to the POW database using the information from the ICRC.
It now turns out this is not correct, from evidence I've just received from the Liddle collection. He was not at Gustrow camp but held behind enemy lines in Belgium, being moved around quite a bit but lastly at Fleurus.
Would you like to amend the database ::)
Would you like any further detail?
Thanks
CHMrels
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number 110 on database,27259 George baines,resided 45 acre st,hollinwood,17th batt,captured 10-7-16 trones wood,last camp sprottau,repatriated at thannington camp 15-1-19,occupation spinner
number 60 f.armshaw,his correct name was frank ormshaw,from wigan.
mack ;D
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sgt roger acton in the database,was sgt 62111 roger,george,dutton ASTON,born 10-11-1894,resided Liverpool,son of peter+alicia,2/5th manchesters
mack ;D
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number 14.[57266 h.aelkirk]is pte 57286 Herbert Selkirk,10 criffel st,silloth Cumberland
number 65 aros mahy,is 343 amos mahy from Guernsey
number 74 albert ashton,he lived at 25 England st,ashton,wife Catherine
mack ;D
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number 180 c.berry and 184 Thomas berry are the same man.
number 187 harry betaman is 25074 harry bateman,he has another index card which gives his army number as 3857 this is an error,hes listed in PA6115 and PA11769
theres also George Bateman PA19575.PA20648 and R53138
number 202 james Bonham service number was 12575,repatriated at hull on 23-11-18,captured 30-4-18
theres a henry Bonham in these lists PA32636 and R52088
number 241 j.a buckley.is in PA21402 and 23780.
SGT 350938 john Alfred buckley,cotton spinner,A.coy 9th manchesters,72 james st ashton,wife Eleanor
302 is 352125 joseph clayton
303 is 350265 Geoffrey clegg,B.coy.9th manchesters,wounded head+arm,taken 22-3-18,at munster[hospital] and sprottau
mack ;D
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Thank you Mack, Tim and CHMrels all have been updated.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
most of these updates are men that I found at a presentation at Stalybridge,it was a benefit night for returning POWs,from the Tameside area,they were all presented with �5,there were no service numbers against their names,just their address,i will try and update them,i found them about 8yrs ago but forgot all about them
number 309 w.collins is PA23471,PA24065 and PA28235
number 316 w cooper,PA24067 and PA25592
number 370 should be 351092 William dibsDALL[not dibsdale],D.coy,1/9th batt,aged 19,taken 22-3-18,at munster II,he was a boy soldier at Gallipoli
mack ;D
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Thanks again Mack. A fiver would be a nice sum of money in those days :)
Charlie
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Thanks again Mack. A fiver would be a nice sum of money in those days :)
Charlie
it would be nowadays,ime skint and the off licence is still open ;D ;D ;D ;D
mack ;D
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To take your mind off the off license could you have a look if you can make sense of Gerald Barasler I've no number or Bn, but he was apparently from Stalybridge
and was in hospital in Germany in May 1917. He was captured at Valenciennes.
Thanks
Charlie
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Charlie,
A few thoughts-
9946 Frederick Jackson was in 2nd Bttn. 1914 Star Roll shows he disembarked 15/8/1914.
Philip Morris had 9467 number.
Charles William Robertson was captured 10-11/7/1916 on Officer PoWs
Henry Waller was captured 23/4/1917, former employee of Blakely & Beving Limited, wounded in the right arm and transferred to Langanzelsa on 2nd June 1917, followed by Darmstadt from 14th or 20th June. He then arrived in Giessen in August 1917, finally staying in Hameln in November 1917. Following his return to England he was Discharged fit on 28/3/1919. Henry was born in Barnsley on 8th September 1887 and his mother�s address is identified as 602 Stretford Road, Old Trafford.
Arthur Watts will have been captured on 9th not 19th July 1916 - IRRC error.
T
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To take your mind off the off license could you have a look if you can make sense of Gerald Barasler I've no number or Bn, but he was apparently from Stalybridge
and was in hospital in Germany in May 1917. He was captured at Valenciennes.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
its pte 47623 Gerald bardsley,32 kinder st,stalybridge,22nd manchesters,he was a textile labourer,he died in January 1925 aged 45,buried 16th jan 1925
D.coy
PA.10032 and PA12972
I don't understand the rest Charlie,i think he was wounded in the thigh,i will leave him to your expertise with german
mack ;D
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number 502 morris Greenberg army number 33670 18th batt
519 j.hague.30213 james hague,taken 25-3-18 at peronne,2/6th batt,113 whiteacre rd ashton
534 f.harrison,48787 frank Harrison,9th batt,taken 21-3-18 hargicourt,37 union rd,hurst
591 8612 Raymond,alfred horan,17th batt,taken 9-7-16 trones wood
626 RQMS 19162 Edward,philip Jenkins,86 braemar rd fallowfield,D.coy,16th batt,captured on Manchester hill 21-3-18,was in charge of the lewis gun team on the eastern lip of the quarry
650 11208 joseph keenan,13 park grove rusholme,18th batt,taken 9-7-16,repat 10-12-18,died 29-5-1922
656 26307 albert,william Kendrick,19 balmoral rd fallowfield,17th batt,A.coy,taken 10-7-16 trones wood,repat ripon 11-12-18
657 6177 George kennedy,56 king st hurst,16th batt,C.coy,taken 21-3-18 st Quentin
659 47279 Clifford Kershaw,230 Marlborough rd ashton,A.coy,16th batt,taken cerisy 23-4-17
664 33687 john kindleysides,great asby,near Appleby,18th batt,taken guillemont 30-7-16,at munster II then minden
681 350731 Edwin lee,9th batt,D.coy,taken argicourt 22-3-18,158 Bentinck st ashton
699 7159 harry,drabwell toft[not loft]D.coy,16th batt,taken trones wood 10-7-16,interned Holland 16-5-18,repat ripon 22-11-18,station rd,woodville,burton on trent
701 351461 Edmond lomax,9th batt,4 providence st,hooley hill,taken 21-3-18 at hardicourt,at gustrow,repat 3-12-18 at dover
mack ;D
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hiya charlie.
have you found the men with the surname jones yet,they come under JOHNE,there 73 manchesters to go at.
mack ;D
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620 52051 john,william Jackson,16th batt[not 18th]D.coy,taken on Manchester hill 21-3-18,wounded in arm,sent to Bayreuth
732 351407 Harold mayall,16th batt
739 350555 William,henry McDonald,2/9th batt
741 35406 Harold mcgarry,22nd batt,C.coy,taken 14-3-17 at puisieux
759 48377 john minshall,16th batt,A.coy,21-3-18 st Quentin
760 12781 john molloy,19th batt,A.coy,taken guillemont 23-7-16
773 Philip morris,D.coy,37 marshall place cheetham hill,taken trones wood 9-10-16
811 Charles oakes,9th batt,A.coy 16 albert st droylesden,taken 21-3-18 at ardicourt,gassed
821 351141 john Oldham,9th batt
831 36970 john parrott[not parratt]16th batt,taken 21-3-18 st Quentin
847 s,h pinder can be deleted,the soldier is drummer 350707 Herbert kinder,B.coy,9th batt,taken 21-3-18 at templeux,at munster II and metz
882 ralph rigby,should be 351526 Robert rigby,A.coy,1/9th batt,taken 21-3-18 at givenchy
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Thanks Mack and Tim.
There are also well over 100 Smiths. I hope they have separated those spelled with 1 F and those with 2 :D
Charlie
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hiya Charlie don't know if you have already got this,the Edwards list stops before they get to the manchesters,but if you use the surname edwardson and then scroll up,the rest of the list appears,this sites bloody mad at times[47 names] ;D ;D
mack ;D
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Mack, it happened to me as well but it is easily sorted.
At the top of the index on the left hand side is a white cell, this has a dropdown menu, open the menu and you will be able to see a list, the section you are using is indicated by a "tick" To move forward simply click on the next section.
Charlie
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2 more suspect names from the ICRC records.
Blogyn Walter 35563 B Coy 16th Bn - Brogan possibly?
Blomley Richard 32923 C Coy 22nd Bn - Bromley?
Any help is appreciated
Charlie
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2 more suspect names from the ICRC records.
Blogyn Walter 35563 B Coy 16th Bn - Brogan possibly?
Blomley Richard 32923 C Coy 22nd Bn - Bromley?
Any help is appreciated
Charlie
Charlie, searching for the service number and Manchester Regiment on the National Archives MICs I found:
Private 32923 Richard Blomley is correct
Walter Blogyn should be Private 35563 Walker Brown
Hope this helps
Pete
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Thanks Pete, not much chance if someone was searching for Pte Brown :)
Charlie
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35563 walker brown,20 George st,moston,16th manchesters,B.coy,taken 21-3-18,repat dover 19-12-18
32923 Richard blomley,263 middleton rd,royton,22nd manchesters,C.coy,taken 14-3-17 at bucquoy,sent to limburg
mack ;D
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last of the updates
number
283.pte 351960 thomas chadwick,22-3-18 st Quentin,1/9th batt
284 middle name parkes
296.full name 41027 albert Clarke
380 john,william dodd,PA41465+PA42181
387 name james Hilton
388 name john
393 41805 john Patrick duffy,C.coy,taken 18-11-18,2nd batt,in 5th field hospital cambrai
396 2nd battalion,83 welbeck st ashton,delete mons star
434 name Harold not harry
436 12th battalion,wounded leg+head.taken 24-3-18,C.coy,at parchin+friedrichfeld
510 Sydney Griffiths,17th batt,A.coy,taken 28-4-18 st.eloi,at dulmen+metz,died 13-9-18
507 Harold grice,D.coy,taken spoil bank 26-4-18
721 47354 harry marshall,A.coy,taken 21-3-18 st.quentin,18th batt
832 john parry,taken 30-7-16,A.coy,wounded shoulder,in reserve hospital Dortmund,victoria rd,prestatyn,sent to munster I
middle name Sidney
887 10301 albert Roberts,18th batt,taken trones wood 9-7-16
890 moiddle name Charles
910 middle name Edward,18th batt,taken 30-7-16,22 crow lane,ramsbottom,buried osthofen cemetery
911 2nd battalion,taken 18-11-16 le sars,B.coy
918+922 are the same man,9117 john,willie schofield,C.coy,2nd batt,119 shaw st,oldham,taken 26-8-14,wounded,died war hospital kaserne 22-9-17 abcesses on chest+lungs,buried hasenheide garrison cemetery
940 middle name Samuel,105 Marlborough rd,higher broughton,repat ripon 14-12-18
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969 francis,leopold squibbs,D.coy,drakelow park gardens,burton on trent
970 delete,already listed,full name Thomas,stafford Austin
973 correct name 40862 Arthur stevens,16th batt,D.coy,taken Manchester hill 21-3-18,7 Poland st,audenshaw
986 Harold,lawton taylor,park rd,ashbourne,derby,C.coy
987 middle name hadfield not hatfield,B.coy,taken 29-3-18
1001 351415 john thornton,2/5th batt,taken 21-3-18 villeret,at cassel
1002 middle name leo,repat 9-12-18.mentioned in despatches
1016 6566 james travis,16th batt,B.coy,195 Stamford rd ashton,taken spoil bank 26-4-18
1018 first name Thomas
1021 middle name asgill,228 abbey st,derby,repat 2-12-18
1028 11270 William,henry upton,35 Johnson st,stockport,repat hull 27-11-18
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1040 23204 William Wallace,16th batt,C.coy,taken 21-3-18 st Quentin,5 raby st
1041 middle name guest
1049 middle name ralph
1076 middle name Richard
1088.27006 james wood,16th batt,B.coy,taken 2-7-16 montauban,153 stand lane,ratcliffe,shrapnel wounds face+legs,sent to langensalza
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Charlie.
that's all the corrections and updates completed for those from the ashton list
do you want me to find the battalions that are not listed in the database
mack ;D
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Mack, thanks a lot for all those. It would be helpful if you could go through the "A"s and see if you have any info in your archives regarding: Coy, Bn, place and date of capture for those that are missing. I have all the info for them from ICRC site, but there are still gaps.
Charlie
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45. 2/Lt frank douglas Andrew,taken 25-3-18,lived at Lynwood,ellesmere park,eccles.
70. 2051/350567 Thomas Ashcroft wasn't a POW,he was killed on 3rd june 1917
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Thanks Mack, he must another Thomas Ashcroft then, PA1780 lists a Thomas Ashcroft but no number or Bn. The number came from Timbermans list of 1st & 2nd Bn PoWs. I must have added 2 and 2 together and got 5 :) Or is he another Hollis?
Charlie
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Thomas Ashcroft
I wonder how he got on the list.
He was always in the 9th Bn,
on his service records and the MIC.
On his MIC it says 4a Africa and did
not go overseas till 1915?
Timberman
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There are two other Thomas Ashcrofts 32765 and 3041 is it possible that somehow one of the numbers got mixed up with another?
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3041 Thomas Ashcroft didn't serve on active service,he was employed on conducting service to france,this entails serving aboard ships and ferries going to and from france,to watch for deserters,sabatours etc
32765 Thomas Ashcroft,his number is too high for a soldier captured in 1914-15,it wasn't issued till late 1915 early 1916
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack and Timberman, I think in that case it must have been a mistake by the Germans.
Charlie
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Charlie
I had a look at other soldiers with the name
Ashcroft in the 1st or 2nd Bn but nothing
tied in with them being POW!
Timberman
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Thanks Timberman, I've tried using Thomas as the surname - I've come across a couple of entries were the fore and surname have been the wrong way round - also with no success.
Charlie
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Another suspect name, ICRC gives him as William Barends, taken Guillemont 09.08.1916 and held at Schneidem�hl, no number or Bn. A search of the MICs draws a blank.
Charlie
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And another one. The ICRC give him as 54661 Pte Lewis Arscott A Coy 16th Bn. The MICs show neither 54661 or Arscott to the Manchesters ???
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As of today (25 Jan) there is a new updated PoW database on the main site.
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2 more suspect names from the ICRC records.
Blogyn Walter 35563 B Coy 16th Bn - Brogan possibly?
Blomley Richard 32923 C Coy 22nd Bn - Bromley?
Any help is appreciated
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
this man is 35563 walker brown,20 George st,moston,B.coy.16th batt,captured 21-3-18
mack ;D
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Cheers Mack
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From the ICRC records - CSM Joe Brindgeman 20th Bn, born 1897 Manchester, home address 12 Thornton ?, Collyhurst. Held at FH 1415 nr Carbonara, taken 17.07.1918 Asiago, Italy. Is any of this correct please? No MIC to this name.
Thanks
Charlie
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Hi Charlie
It's Joseph Bridgeman 2845 L/Sgt.
His service records are on Ancestry,
They live at 72 Thornton St.
There is a letter from his parents
asking his whereabouts,
Saying he is with 21st Bn, C Coy 11 platoon.
Timberman
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Thanks Timberman, It is amazing what was not thrown away when the files were purged!
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Lucky for us :)
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As of today - 21 Feb, there is an updated PoW database available on the main site.
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hiya Charlie.
some adjustments and additions to the database.the number at the side is his spread sheet number
18.middle name leslie
29.middle name keith
31.middle name Richardson
33.middle name george
34.middle name john
38.first name Charles
42.first name Harold
113.12575 j.badham,his correct name is james Bonham,17th battalion
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Cheers Mack
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more additions.
113 Christian names George,William
118 army number 75473
128 1st name Alfred
137.middle name.clarence
141 middle name Wycherley
143.correct name harry sandal,17th batt
153.william barends was kings Liverpool,not a Manchester
159.christian names Malcolm,higham barlow
163+165 are the same man,his correct details are,ralph,frederick barnes,49 ratcliffe st,levenshulme[not Radcliffe]
172 correct name Thomas barnes
174 Christian names,william,henry
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Thanks Mack, you're keeping me on my toes today :D :D
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more additions/amendments
126.middle name brown
130.middle name henry
177.1st name james
191.correct number 61197,middle name Richard,18th battalion.
196.middle name William
198.1st name.henry
199.middle name Charles
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209.john beaford,correct details.8403 john Bedford[bomber],41 droylsden rd,newton heath,B.coy.17th manchesters,captured trones wood 9-7-16,camps dulmen+sprottau
213.christian names ernest,squire
221.middle name Herbert
223.1st name frank
225.harry,alexander beever,25 barton rd,moss side,killed at hillah with the 2nd battalion 24-7-1920[number 3512967]
228.alger,fred bell,was in 19th lancs fusiliers,not the manchesters,there were other men listed as manchesters in the POW records,who show up in the medal rolls as serving with the 18th or 19th LFs.
240.middle name Gerald.143 ainsworth lane,bolton,captured 9-9-18,12th battalion,contravted TB,lived till he was 73 years old
244.e.bennett.correct details.6135 Bennett exley.loyal north lancs regt,previously 4367 10th manchesters,not with the manchesters at the time
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Thanks again Mack, the combination of your archives and the ICRC records will give us the most reliable database available. Keep them coming :)
Charlie
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248.middle name Benjamin
255.correct name Patrick hennighan,2/6th batt
261.middle name travis
267.middle name Raymond
277.first name Frederick
284.john,albert birchenough,12 albion st,brooks bar old Trafford
287.middle name john
290 f.h bishop,not listed in medal rolls,captured 18-4-18,repat 14-12-18,20th manchesters
296 William Blackburn,only three men in regiment with this name,one lost a arm at Gallipoli,one was on garrison duty till 1919 and the other was a 1916 enlister
298.h.bland,nobody with this service number
303.1st name john,correct number 251436,1/6th batt
342.correct name,8829 eugene,chevallier royle,17th manchesters
351.middle name William
355.1st name harry
357.middle name Charles
360.nothing found
363+367 are the same man,correct number 352615 Arthur,john branton
374.Lt john,herbert,brereton sewell,captured 21-3-18,repat 29-11-18,"woodside"marple,cheshire
375 middle name albert
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376.george brewis
377.midlle name Harold
378.1st name joseph
379.middle name albert
386.names Thomas,eli
388.middle name Christopher
395.middle name henry
403.correct number 43072,middle name Charles
405.middle name edwin
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408.correct name George brookes
412.1st name George
416.middle name Thomas
418.names john,henderson
421.middle name Thompson
424+425 are the same man,57347 john,william brown
429.1st name Stephen
431.names walter,william
434.middle name frederick
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amendment.
17.davies alan,correct details 203069 john,alan davies,105 Talbot st,moss side,A.coy,2/5th batt,captured 21-3-18 at villerette
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51.2653 james,arthur Appleton,32 howard st,hulme,2nd battalion,C.coy,shot in the spine and taken prisoner 26-8-14 at le cateau,repatriated to king George hospital Stamford st,london on 29-6-15,sent from Giessen,paralysed in both legs,in ducie avenue military hospital then the star+garter home,died 22nd February 1922
john+william Appleton are not manchesters.
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Thanks Mack, those will keep me busy :D
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51.2653 james,arthur Appleton,32 howard st,hulme,2nd battalion,C.coy,shot in the spine and taken prisoner 26-8-14 at le cateau,repatriated to king George hospital Stamford st,london on 29-6-15,sent from Giessen,paralysed in both legs,in ducie avenue military hospital then the star+garter home,died 22nd February 1922
john+william Appleton are not manchesters.
Mack
I think James Arthur and John were the same person, the wounds, Bn, camps etc were too similar.
296 William Blackburn, is it possible that it was 5672 William Blackburne,
298 H Bland could this be 4498 & 276693 Hubert W Bland?
Charlie
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hiya charlie
William blackburne transferred to the RGA and theres only MIC for Hubert bland
i'me fairly sure that james+john Appleton are the same man,there were only two appletons with the 2nd battalion in 1914,the other one was George,he was james brother,he was killed in the September.
83.alfred asquith,he was with the loyal north lancs when he was captured
mack ;D
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121. 251639.Cpl joseph baird,21 oak rd,higher broughton,died 26-9-18,2/5th batt
360. 25154 William brady,10 ash view,hurst,ashton,17th battalion,captured Vaux 22-3-18,sent to cassel,repat 12-1-19
386. Thomas,eli brierley,67 carlton st,farnworth
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Thanks Mack
I've found William Brady now, the Manchesters have been filed under MGC again. I must remember to keep checking there if there are no Manchesters listed.
I'll delete Bland and Blackburn.
Charlie
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additional info.
427.2291 Michael brown
lived 28 Trafalgar st,bury new rd
captured 26-8-14+wounded
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additional :
484 Richard Francis Geoffrey Burrows
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Thank you both for the additional information
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Hi Charlie,
Not sure if it's my laptop, but think the latest Excel database file has gone wrong.
T
ps Thanks Pete. I think it's the mobile net connection at mother-in-law's house. Spreadsheet is fine with Broadband.
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Hi Tim, I just checked and the POW database is working fine so probably your laptop :). If you need me to send you a copy please pm me with your email address.
Regards
Pete
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11. james agnew,full name james nuttall agnew,he was wounded when captured.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack - amended.
Charlie
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This one may a be needle in a haystack.
The ICRC index card lists a 200735? Cpl Charles Arthur Cans? 2/5th Bn, born 29.09.1898, from Higher Broughton. Taken Hargicourt 21.03.1918 and held at G�strow. The question marks are on the index card after the surname and number.
According to the MICs 200735 is L/Cpl William Ellison also 2709. He is not listed in the ICRC records.
Any ideas?
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
I have checked the medal cards using the two Christian names and the regt,theres nothing anywhere close to him,i tried just the first name and regt,again there nothing close,its probably another bad translation,i did a proper deep check for him,cos I don't like being beaten,sorry mate
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
it seems I aint all that bloody good at searching mate,your man is Cpl 200755 Arthur cain,2/5th manchesters
PA29814.
mack ;D
sorry mate
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Thanks Mack, I knew you wouldn't be beaten :)
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Mack, can you have a look please.
Martin Caridon?, no number, A Coy 19th Bn, treated for a leg wound in a Field Hospital at Manancourt, the hospital list is dated 13.09.1916
Charlie
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Mack, can you have a look please.
Martin Caridon?, no number, A Coy 19th Bn, treated for a leg wound in a Field Hospital at Manancourt, the hospital list is dated 13.09.1916
Charlie
I can do a bit better with this one Charlie.
type in 25017 in our site search engine,hes martin Corrigan.
I found him many years ago.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I've no idea how you do it :D
Another 2 please:
William Carridace, no number, 2/5th Bn,taken St. Quentin 21.03.1918, Born in Colne 17.03.1890 - I think he is 47542 William S Carradice.
Marshall? Carroll, no number, 17th Bn, taken 22.03.1918 St. Quentin, born 14.11.1897 Manchester - 34828 Michael J possibly?
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
47542 William,shepherd carradice
34828 Michael,joseph carroll.
William was the son of Isaac+mary of colne,he died 21-2-1952,living at the time at 24 lidgett st,colne,cant find anything about Michael,his grandson was searching for info a few years ago,[search engine 34928]
mack ;D
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Mack, thanks for confirming, I'm must be learning :D
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hiya Charlie.
I have loads of scribbled notes about men already in the database,can I add the bits that are missing and then I can sling the notes away.
655.henry Delaney
18th batt
GSW right leg,compound fracture tibia+fibia
captured 22-3-18
repat 29-12-18
intered soltau.barrack 2
657.albert Derbyshire
captured 21-3-18 hagicourt
1 Bradford st west,bolton
died of a weak heart at skalmiershutz camp,poland 21-7-18
1194.augustus masters
19th batt
D.coy
captured 23-7-16 not 30th
wounded left knee
repat 1-1-19 to Fulham military hospital
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1381.j.o plunkett
19th batt
23-7-16 guillemont
17 Albany square,pendleton[not the Liverpool address]
at limburg
1398.e.prince
18th batt
C.coy
13-5-16 correct date of capture
4 beech st,lower broughton,correct address
1536.e.smithson
18th batt not 17th
lost left eye
sent to switz 11-9-17
repatriated to 2nd western gen hospital,manchester 10-12-17
1664 W.webb,middle name Alfred
18th batt
captured guillemont
shrapnel back of head and left side
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Thanks Mack, I'll add all the details.
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Mack
Can you have a look if you have anything on 28545 John Henry Church, 15 Kelsall St, Ardwick. I think he may have been Middlesex Regt when captured. I can't find him in the ICRC records either under Middlesex or Manchester Regts.
Thanks
Charlie
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And another one please Mack.
John Coalduck??, no number, 22 Bn, from liverpool, held in hospitals at Mons and Minden on a list dated 09.05.1917 so presumably wounded.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
hes pte 47646 john coulduck,48 back beau street,liverpool
mack ;D
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Cheers Mack, anything on Church?
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hiya Charlie.
hes listed in the absent voters list under 28545 john,henry church,prisoner of war,15 kelsall st,ardwick,i checked the medal rolls and it says he was in a garrison battalion of the manchesters and then in the Middlesex regt.i wonder if he was in a POW company in france guarding POWs and the voters list is an error.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I think that rules him out as a Manchesters PoW.
Can you have a look at this one please:
William Cokwell??, 1st Bn, taken Ypres and held at Altdamm on a list dated 19.12.1914. I think he is either 9557 or 7089 William Caldwell.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie
9557 was in the 13th batt and 7089 was 16th batt,the list that cokwell appears in,is mainly men from the queens regt,KRRC and the south staffs,most captured on 31st November 1914,cokwell is the only Manchester in the list,the 63 regt could be a typing error,theres nobody in the 1914 or 1915 star rolls with a name that comes close to cokwell
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, there's nothing that comes close elsewhere so I think he's going to remain a mystery.
Charlie
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Mack, can you help please
16082 Pte George Conlon, ICRC records have him as either C Coy 16th or 18th Bn, taken 21.03.1918 St Quentin, from Burnley.
16082 is Thomas Conlon 11th Bn, there are only 4 George Conlons in the MICs, none are relevant.
Charlie
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The latest update of the PoW database is now available on the main site.
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Thank you Charlie :)
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Mack, can you help please
16082 Pte George Conlon, ICRC records have him as either C Coy 16th or 18th Bn, taken 21.03.1918 St Quentin, from Burnley.
16082 is Thomas Conlon 11th Bn, there are only 4 George Conlons in the MICs, none are relevant.
Charlie
Charlie, Thomas Conlon was in a draft to that joined the 11th Manchesters on 23rd December 1915 (presumably at Mudros, shortly after the evacuation from Suvla Bay). We have the following info from the 11th Manchester 1915 Star Roll. The fact that he was renumbered suggested that he joined another Battalion of the Manchesters:
CONLON, Thomas. Pte 16082. Later Manchester Regt number, 77762, and then East Lancashire Regiment, 3380442. To Class Z, Army Reserve on 05.06.19. His medals were forfeited because of an offence committed before enlistment and not declared (seems very harsh).
Hope this helps
Pete
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Thanks Pete
It looks like they got his forename wrong, hopefully Mack will be able to pin down the Battalion he was transferred to.
As his E.Lancs number is a post 1920 one (I stand to be corrected though) it looks like he re-enlisted after the war. I hope he appealed against forfeiting his medals and won, it is as you say very harsh, probably a decision made by a jobsworth who had never looked down the wrong end of a rifle barrel.
Charlie
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I cant find this man in the burnley roll of honour,there are two Thomas CONLANS but neither are this man,theres a reference to stockport on one of his red cross cards,he was in the 18th battalion according to his medal card,if he was in the 18th batt,hes the first one I have come across from that battalion who was captured at st.quentin.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, theoretically he could not have been with the 18th at the time of capture, is it possible he was at the time with the 16th as suggested by the ICRC record?
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Thanks Mack, theoretically he could not have been with the 18th at the time of capture, is it possible he was at the time with the 16th as suggested by the ICRC record?
I agree with you Charlie
mack ;D
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A bit of help needed with these two please:
Cpl George Cott?, no number, B Coy 17th Bn, taken at Guillemont and held at Minden 01.08.1916, PA 5922. The nearest match I can find is 55542 Catt.
3673 or 4 William Cowan, no Bn, taken Lagnicourt 15.04.1917, born in Sydney Australia, held at G�strow and Parchim, PA 35884. I think he is a mis-filed Aussie.
Thanks
Charlie
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Cpl George Cott?, no number, B Coy 17th Bn, taken at Guillemont and held at Minden 01.08.1916, PA 5922. The nearest match I can find is 55542 Catt.
Leaves me stumped I'm afraid. Can't see any Book of Honour names that remotely fit.
Suspect 55542 is much too high to be a July 1916 participant.
Tim
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Thanks Tim
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I was right about Cowan. I stumbled across the excellent Australian War Memorial site while looking for something else completely. He is 367A Pte William John C Cowan 21st Aus MGC. It's worth a look to see how the Australians have recorded their PoWs.
https://www.awm.gov.au/people/rolls/R1483974/
Charlie
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G'day Charlie,
These Australian Red Cross rolls for casualties are equally detailed and vivid. I know we lost most records in the blitz, but suspect the Aussies did a more comprehensive job than us.
If anyone has international Ancestry membership, I'd be interested to know how much more detail is available on William Barker Hart's Service Record. This is his ARC Record http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1046079--1-.pdf (http://static.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1046079--1-.pdf).
Tim
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tim.
I didn't know you were interested in the Australian forces,i have been using this site for years,all the info you require about your man can be found on this site,google AIF project.
mack ;D
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Cpl George Cott?, no number, B Coy 17th Bn, taken at Guillemont and held at Minden 01.08.1916, PA 5922. The nearest match I can find is 55542 Catt.
Leaves me stumped I'm afraid. Can't see any Book of Honour names that remotely fit.
Suspect 55542 is much too high to be a July 1916 participant.
Tim
tims right Charlie,his service number wouldn't be higher than the 30000 batch.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie
I;ve done a deep search for George cott,i cant find a man who comes close to this surname,sorry mate,hes another mystery
mack ;D
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tim.
I didn't know you were interested in the Australian forces,i have been using this site for years,all the info you require about your man can be found on this site,google AIF project.
mack ;D
Incredible detail. Thanks
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hiya Charlie
I;ve done a deep search for George cott,i cant find a man who comes close to this surname,sorry mate,hes another mystery
mack ;D
Thanks Mack, I've tried all sorts myself with no luck, like you say he's another mystery.
Charlie
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A bit of help needed with these two please:
Cpl George Cott?, no number, B Coy 17th Bn, taken at Guillemont and held at Minden 01.08.1916, PA 5922. The nearest match I can find is 55542 Catt.
3673 or 4 William Cowan, no Bn, taken Lagnicourt 15.04.1917, born in Sydney Australia, held at Güstrow and Parchim, PA 35884. I think he is a mis-filed Aussie.
Thanks
Charlie
got him Charlie
he is L/cpl 11512 George cox,9 walsden rd,clayton,he was in the 19th battalion,the 9 looks like a 7,captured 23-7-16 at guillemont,at minden.wounded right shoulder and forearm by shrapnel. PA10002
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Great stuff Mack, you obviously have a masters degree in phonetic spelling :D
Charlie
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Frederick Cummins, taken 26.08.1914 Le Cateau, from Edinburgh, Senne for exchange 20.11.1916 on PA 7169. If he is Manchesters he would have to be 2nd Bn, I can only find Frederick Cummins 3680 renumbered 276182 which does not seem to fit. Any ideas please.
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hiya Charlie
I think your man is pte 9732 Thomas Cummings
lived with his sister at 103 busk rd,chadderton
he was from Scotland
captured on the aisne 9-9-14
the American embassy reported that he was a POW on 19-12-14
the dutch reported that he was in hospital at limburg with nervous heart trouble,he was reported at senne 3 on 17-3-16
repatriated to England 19-5-18 sent to royal Victoria hospital,netley 20-5-18
there was no Frederick cummins/cummings in the 2nd battalion
3680/276182 Frederick cummins was in the 1/7th battalion at Salonika attatched to the stokes mortar battery,he was sent home with malaria,lived at 84 church st,moston
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, with the extra info you have given it seems that they are one and the same man. Due to the conflicting info in the ICRC records I was doubtful. Thomas Cummings was rejected the first time he was sent for repatriation in Dec 1916 and was returned to Senne from Konstanz. He is listed as having a GSW to left leg and mental illness.
Charlie
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35104 Frank Dawson 17th Bn, died 30.07.1916 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.
He was added to the PoW database sometime up to 2009, I can find no ICRC record for him and there is nothing in the CWGC records to suggest that he was a PoW. Has anyone conformation that he was a PoW?
Charlie
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he was probably added in error Charlie.
mack ;D
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Help again please.
1545? Raymond Dervis?, D Coy, taken 25.04.1917 Hill 60, born 20.10.1894 Taglesworth? PA 40930.
15085 T Dickenson or Dickinson, 18th Bn, repatriated 28.11.1918. Nothing similar in the MICs.
Thanks
Charlie
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hiya Charlie
1545 Raymond dervis is this man PA.37574,raymond Dewhurst
mack ;D
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Cheers Mack, I hope no-one ever paid for a search on some of these names.
Charlie
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I cant find 15085 t Dickinson,15085 is a number that was issued to the 24th manchesters,theres nothing in the MICs or the 24th battalion history.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack,
15085 was Hugh Ingram, who does not have a MIC, so presumably never went overseas.
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William George Doozy? B Coy 7th Bn PA30461, I think he is 54390 George William Doody. Any thoughts please.
Charlie
-
The latest update of the PoW database is now available on the main site.
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fantastic work Charlie,i have been able to add another three men to the list of those captured at Manchester hill thanks to your hard work.
mack ;D
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Two more please:
William Duhbray?, 18th Bn, GSW left sholder and left lower arm, held at Ohrdruf and Langensalza, PA 6976.
16054? Thomas Dundavy?, 1/? Bn, taken St. Emelie? 22.03.1918, held at G�strow on a list dated 10.06.1918, born 02.05.1878 Ireland, 22 Northgate Wakefield, PA 28803
Thanks
Charlie
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hiya Charlie
William dubray is james Duxbury,hes here PA.6116
the other fella is munsters not manchesters
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie
I was looking for 16th batt men with the surname beginning with U,all the surnames under U are lumped together,so I went through all of them,theres only the following men under the surname starting with U
Sydney upright PA5692+PA6841
john upton.PA19583+PA20657
William,h upton.PA5708+PA6902
w upton.R52654
Lt w.a.e urie.PA23363
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, thats a great help I'll add them to the database. You are quite right about Dundavy, his index card reads 1st Manchesters but as you say the record clearly has him as Munsters, my eyesight must be going :D
Charlie
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Thanks Mack, thats a great help I'll add them to the database. You are quite right about Dundavy, his index card reads 1st Manchesters but as you say the record clearly has him as Munsters, my eyesight must be going :D
Charlie
its the bad writing Charlie.
mack ;D
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bloody hell it's like watching Columbo with you guys................
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I have become quite an expert with bad writing chris,i've had plenty of years practice searching through badly written docs and service records ;D ;D ;D
mack ;D
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Columbo, didn't he have wonky eyes as well :D
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Columbo, didn't he have wonky eyes as well :D
that's the fella Charlie ;D ;D ;D
mack ;D
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Mack, I don't know what to make of this one:
PA24751 lists 17616 Sydney Eaves, 16th Bn, taken St. Quentin 21.03.1918. According to the MICs 17616 is Sydney H Eves 20th Bn and 24107 RE. There is a 44217 Sydney Eaves in the MICs but no Bn. Would the medal rolls clarify?
Thanks
Charlie
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hiya Charlie
he is Sydney,humphries eaves,2 levenshulme rd,gorton,A.coy.
mack ;D
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I'm not sure if he was Manchesters when captured:
4367 Bennett Exley, C Coy 16th Bn, taken Delville Wood 10.09.1916. The MICs list him as 4367 Manchesters, 6135 and 202756 Loyals. PA 6732,6743,6977 and 7080.
Thanks
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
This is certainly puzzling. The MICs refer to Bennett in 10th Bttn before 4th LNL - nothing about 16th Bttn. He then has a Soldiers Effects record (noting "Man Alive") where he was (not) dead on 9/9/1916 serving with 4th LNL. It's possible he was assumed dead after capture in July and then the good news arrived that he was a PoW. In which case he would appear to have been captured with 4th LNL. Then again it would be odd for the death date to be during his period of captivity if he had been assumed dead. Possibly confusion with names....
On the other hand, I'll check Michael Stedman's book on Guillemont tonight, but don't recall LNL being involved in the area until later. More importantly the British hadn't reached Delville by 10/9/1916. I recall other references to Delville Wood for men who were actually captured at Trones Wood - where the 16th Battalion had men present on that day. This doesn't settle the explanation for the 10th Bttn MIC.
If he'd been attached to 16th Bttn, it would be strange to have been posted to 1/4th LNL 3 months later. http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/10th%20Manchesters (http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/10th%20Manchesters) suggests Bennett enlisted in Nov 1915.
I'll be interested to hear what others find.
T
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exley would not have been renumbered with a six figure service number if he was still with the manchesters,he was renumbered after capture,i think the 16th batt reference on his POW card stems from a transcription error by the germans,and the 0 was transcribed as a 6
mack ;D
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Thanks Tim and Mack, that puts him with the Loyals.
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51105 Percy Farley, 16th Bn no Coy, taken St Quentin 21.03.1918, PA24860 and R53261. MICs list him as also ES/58714 ASC. Is he Manchesters please.
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Percy re-enlisted in RASC on 13/3/1919. I wonder if this means he could have been posted to ASC when he was repatriated - thereby showing the BWM & VM allocated from them rather than Manchesters. It would be a very strange co-incidence to have been captured on that date in St Quentin with ASC.
Tim
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your ok with him Charlie,he was one of those who rejoined after repatriation leave,he was down as 17th manchesters.
mack ;D
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Thanks both of you.
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Another one please:
302652 Jack Feeley, 2/5th Bn, taken 21.03.1918 Villeret, Oldham Rd Miles Platting, PA29024. 302652 is not Jack Feeley or anything like Feeley. There is a 6501 John Feeley in the MICs.
Thanks
Charlie
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This one has got me puzzled (not hard I know :D )
PA27132 lists Herbert Firth 2/6th Bn, born Leeds 15.02.1887, taken Gincourt presumably Jeancourt 21.03.1918, held at Skalmiersch�tz. He has no index card, the reference to him is on the index card of 50399 Harry Firth, 16th Bn, born Oldham 26.07.1889, 20 Princess St Oldham, taken 21.03.1918 St Quentin. There are two Herbert Firths in the MICs: 31315 Manchesters also 129296 MGC, and 303052 Herbert O. Is it a mis-transcription or are they two different people. Princess St Oldham is in Lees.
can anyone shed any light please
Charlie
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303052 Herbert,osborne firth,last known address,165 hyde park rd,leeds,serving with 2/6th manchesters.
mack ;D
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302652 jack feeley,there are men missing from the medal rolls,i was searching for two men this morning,and they don't show up in the medal rolls,they definitely served because both of them were wounded in may 1918 and appear in a list of wounded in the 16th batts war diary
mack ;D
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That's great, many thanks Mack.
Charlie
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47531 George Foscal?, listed on PA29034 as 12th Bn taken 26.03.1918 and held at G�strow, born Oldham 18.07.1878. 47531 is Mark Bartlett.
Any ideas please.
Charlie
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The latest update of the PoW database is now available on the main site.
The database now contains over 2000 entries. Approximately 1100 (marked with a green cell) of these contain the information from the ICRC records, these are the names beginning with A, B, C, D, E, Q and U. F is 80% complete, there are no entries in the ICRC records for X and Z with the exception of one phonetic spelling under Z.
There is the chance that phonetic spellings for names beginning with these letters are hidden away somewhere and are still waiting to be discovered :)
Charlie
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47531 George Foscal?, listed on PA29034 as 12th Bn taken 26.03.1918 and held at Güstrow, born Oldham 18.07.1878. 47531 is Mark Bartlett.
Any ideas please.
Charlie
He is 47521 Caleb Foxall, easy now I know ;D
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Is anyone able to confirm which Bn 54199 Pte Frederick Albert Gander served with, the CWGC Grave Registration Report and the ICRC have him as A Coy 2/10th, the CWGC casualty details list him as 2/6th.
Thanks
Charlie
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Edward Garton? PA 916 & PA719, wounded hip/leg and held in Field Hospitals December 1914 so presumably either 1st or 2nd Bn. Any ideas please.
Charlie
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Is anyone able to confirm which Bn 54199 Pte Frederick Albert Gander served with, the CWGC Grave Registration Report and the ICRC have him as A Coy 2/10th, the CWGC casualty details list him as 2/6th.
Thanks
Charlie
Hi Charlie, it looks like he was 2/6th. From our main website (ref: Amateur Soldiers by Bill Mitchinson): the 2nd/10th were disbanded in February 1918 (approx. 250 men went to 1/10th Bn, the others went to 1/7th & 1/8th). Frederick died on 27th March 1918.
1/10, 2/10 and 2/6th were in the 66th (East Lancashire) Division - 1/7th & 1/8th were 42nd Division.
The WW1 Service Medal and Awards Roll shows 2/10 then 2/6th. His MIC doesn't help (no battalions listed - only Manchester Regiment).
Hope this helps
Pete
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Pete,
Many thanks, that has cleared things up for me.
Charlie
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fred albert gander was originally 2/10th batt then posted to 2/6th
mack ;D
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Edward Garton? PA 916 & PA719, wounded hip/leg and held in Field Hospitals December 1914 so presumably either 1st or 2nd Bn. Any ideas please.
Charlie
pte 7598 Edward gorton.122 nora st,lower broughton
captured 22-10-14
sent to munster
repatriated 15-12-18
mack ;D
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Cheers Mack.
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Cheers Mack.
sorry Charlie,i forgot to add,he was 2nd manchesters
mack ;D
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8589 James Gettings 2nd Bn, wounded and lived Franklin St Salford is listed in the PoW database prior to 2009. ICRC list him - wrongly - as being killed prior to 09.04.1915, place of burial unknown. Is anything else known about this man? Was he in fact a PoW?
Charlie
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8589 James Gettings 2nd Bn, wounded and lived Franklin St Salford is listed in the PoW database prior to 2009. ICRC list him - wrongly - as being killed prior to 09.04.1915, place of burial unknown. Is anything else known about this man? Was he in fact a PoW?
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
he was definitely a POW.hes listed in the Manchester regt gazette as a POW also on his medal cards and his name is in a list of prisoners published in Manchester evening news on 15th april 1915.
the germans also listed pte 8082 Edward miller as DOWs,which was incorrect,he was repatriated to Switzerland
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, the list he is on was drawn up on the same date as the list which includes John Hollis. Strange that there is only the one index card for Gettings, he must have kept his head down for the following four years! Who ever drew up the lists was obviously drinking something better than I can get my hands on :D
Charlie
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40649 John Hopley Newton, A COy 17th Bttn. Captured 20/3/1918 Vaux/ R'oberso Henkel. Res.Laz. Ingolstadt (????) Born Wilmslow 18/12/1897. Son of Joseph Newton, Oak Cottage, Styal, CHeshire http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0179/C_G1_E_04_01_0179_0121.JPG/ (http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0179/C_G1_E_04_01_0179_0121.JPG/)
Medal Roll shows earlier service with 21st Bttn. No Star
Mother Annie.
Looks like he died in Nov 1998 aged 100.
Courtesy of Jon Armstrong GWF:-
Alderley and Wilmslow Advertiser
26 April 1918, p3
"Mr and Mrs Newton, of 27, Oak Cottages, Styal, have received from the War Office notification stating that their youngest son, Private JH Newton, is posted as missing on 22nd March, 1918. Private Newton has been three years in the army last January. He was 20 years of age, and in a battalion of the Manchesters, and home on leave seven weeks ago. Much sympathy is felt for Mr and Mrs Newton at the inevitable suspense. Their elder son is still in France."
[In using the past tense for him, the paper didn't seem to be holding out much hope!]
17 May 1918, page 2
"Private J.H. Newton of The Mews, youngest son of Mr and Mrs Joseph Newton, of 27, Oak Cottages, who was reported missing on March 22nd, has now been heard of directly. On Monday a letter was received from him in which he states he is wounded and a prisoner of war in Bavaria, and is being treated well."
There's a picture of him here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159975&hl=manchester#entry2279015 (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=159975&hl=manchester#entry2279015)
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Thanks Tim, I'll add him to the database. R Oberschenkel = right thigh. The wound didn't seem to have any long term affect on him if he lived to be 100! He was taken on the 22nd the second 2 is badly written.
Charlie
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The latest update of the database is now available on the main site.
Charlie
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253233? Pte JS Haltan? 2/6th Bn, repatriated 23.11.1918, R 52116. Is he possibly 3125 James Halton?
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
I,ve tried ever source for this man and nothings coming up,3125 james halton was a regular,his medal cards only give 3125 as his only number
mack ;D
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Thanks for trying Mack. Have you come across the name "Hall" in the ICRC files. I've gone through all the names beginning with "Ha" and Hall isn't there. I do not for one moment believe that no Halls were taken Prisoner.
Charlie
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253233? Pte JS Haltan? 2/6th Bn, repatriated 23.11.1918, R 52116. Is he possibly 3125 James Halton?
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
his name looks like maltham not halton,still cant find owt,even his number is dodgy,i cant even find other manchesters with a service number close to his in the medal rolls
mack ;D
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Thanks for trying Mack. Have you come across the name "Hall" in the ICRC files. I've gone through all the names beginning with "Ha" and Hall isn't there. I do not for one moment believe that no Halls were taken Prisoner.
Charlie
halls have been buggin me for ages,ive tried halle,hull,hill etc but nowts showing up,ive seen halls in lists,but cant find them in the index.
mack ;D
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Mack, I stumbled across loads of names beginning with "U" indexed under TWELTREE, did you go through these as well when you collated the U's? I believe Reece/Rees is also "missing".
Charlie
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Mack, I stumbled across loads of names beginning with "U" indexed under TWELTREE, did you go through these as well when you collated the U's? I believe Reece/Rees is also "missing".
Charlie
I didn't notice them Charlie.
mack ;D
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Mack, I stumbled across loads of names beginning with "U" indexed under TWELTREE, did you go through these as well when you collated the U's? I believe Reece/Rees is also "missing".
Charlie
I didn't notice them Charlie.
mack ;D
Ok I'll add them in.
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53554? Pte Albert Har* ?, 2/5th Bn, taken Villeret 21.03.1918, PA 32030. Help please.
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hiya Charlie
his name is pte 53557 albert,edward hoare,the address should be pinewood road not pennwood rd
mack ;D
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That was quick Mack, is it one you had waiting :D
Charlie
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That was quick Mack, is it one you had waiting :D
Charlie
Charlie.
he really took some digging out,i nearly gave up,but I,me to bleedin stubborn to give in ;D ;D
mack ;D
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It's a good thing you are stubborn :)
Have you any idea on the correct Bn for 203414 James (or Frank) Charles Halsall? PA 32037 gives him as 2/4th Bn.
PA 34187 lists a 412965 Albert Havenscroft 2/6th Bn taken at Hargicourt. I presume this was 302767 Albert Ravenscroft, if Ravenscroft is correct, was he still with the Manchesters when captured?
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
james,charles halsall was in the 2/5th battalion
cant find albert Ravenscroft under either of these numbers 412965 and 302767
his address 13 rudman st,salford,i checked my absent voters registers for this address,a pte William robinson lived there in 1918
the only albert Ravenscroft in the manchesters,was 25275,formerly MGC
mack ;D
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302767 Albert Ravenscroft has a MiC which also has him as 66431 Cheshires
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4790830
Charlie
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Arthur Heywood no number or Bn, interned in Switzerland 21.10.1918, R 51717. Any ideas which Arthur Heywood it is please.
Charlie
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12101 Arthur Heywood[sniper]
394 Manchester rd,droylsden
19th manchesters
C.coy
captured 23-7-16 sent to minden,GSW right forearm
repatriated to Switzerland 21-10-18
repatriated to Lewisham military hospital 7-12-18
he may have been confused as to which battalion he was actually still serving with when he was repatriated,he was posted to the 16th battalion on 13-3-18 while a POW.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I've got him now, he is also indexed as "Hayward" trouble was there is an Arthur Hayward also without a number in the index. After checking the MiCs I came to the conclusion that Arthur Hayward was Arthur Hayward as he has a one off name if you follow what I mean ;D
Any other thoughts on Ravenscroft?
Charlie
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302767 albert Ravenscroft was with the Cheshire regt Charlie.
mack ;D
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Ok Mack, thanks once again for your help.
Charlie
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The latest update of the database is available on the main site
Charlie
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nice work Charlie
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack
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Hi Charlie,
I spotted this link to a PoW that is not on the schedule. http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311436484140?item=311436484140&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/311436484140?item=311436484140&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true)
2871 L/Cpl E C Hillman or 1935
The 1914/15 Star suggests an alternate number 1935 in 1st Bttn disembarking 6b (??) 25/8/1915 and discharge 30/3/1919. BWM/VM Roll shows the 1935 No and attached to 1st Ox & Bucks. It's poss the 2871 No relates them, although it's a pretty low number and 9675 seems to be that No. He was a pre-war regular with 1st LF 10th Hussars and 1st Manchesters. Captured with Ox & Bucks 26/5/1916. Retuned from Turkey 22/11/1918. Went on back serve in India in Jan 1919 before discharge.
T
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Thanks Tim, I'll add him to the database. I had a quick look at the ICRC site and his index card lists him as 2871 Manchesters. He was held at Kara Hissar and repatriated 22.11.1918. His wife was in Bangalore at the time. There is something else written on the index card something to do with the Red Cross but it's in French so I haven't a clue ;D
Charlie
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Help please with these two:
PA 18491 lists William Heiner 2nd Bn, I think he is most probably William Heine Middx Regt
PA 3990: John Helditch? taken Le Cateau got him - Hilditch
Charlie
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Charles Henny? no number or Bn but held at G�tersloh November 1914, PA 454. Any ideas please.
Charlie
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Charles Henny? no number or Bn but held at Gütersloh November 1914, PA 454. Any ideas please.
Charlie
the list is from 1914,the only one who comes close is pte 1218 Charles Kenny,captured 1914
mack ;D
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Ok thanks Mack, Kenny sounds good, I'll have a look what can be found under Kenny and it should be possible to tie the two together.
Charles Kenny is the man, he's also listed as being held at G�tersloh in Dec 1915. Well done again Mack ;D
Charlie
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PA 6746 lists a J Hill (no number), C Coy 9th Bn, transferred from Ohrdruf to Langensalza on a list of 18.10.1916. Any ideas please which J Hill he might be.
Thanks
Charlie
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Is the correct Bn for 34425 Pte Leonard F Higgins known please, PA24028 lists him as 14th Bn.
PA25648 lists a William Hoaldsworth (no number), C Coy 17th Bn, born 21.12.1898 in Ardwick. Any help as to his correct name and number would be appreciated.
Thanks
Charlie
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54736 William Houldsworth of C Coy 17th Bttn has irrc cards PA25520 (Cassel) & 25581 (Chemitz?).
Captured St Quentin (Savy?) 22/3/1918. DoB 11/12/1898 Ardwick. Resident 20 Bristol St, Ardwick. Father Joseph
Received BWM & VM. No Star (Too Young).
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Many thanks Tim.
Charlie
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Can anyone throw any light on a Fred Hodley? (no number), 17th Bn, taken St Quentin 22.03.1918, 43 Well Meadow Hyde, born 11.12.1898 Hyde, PA 39478.
Thanks
Charlie
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54720 Fred Hooley 17th Bttn.
Also PA22389 Darmstadt
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Great stuff, thanks Tim
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Is the correct Bn for 34425 Pte Leonard F Higgins known please, PA24028 lists him as 14th Bn.
SWB 17th Bttn for Leonard enlisting 15/1/1916, discharged 15/4/1919. kr 392 xvi.
Earlier presumed dead as KiA 22/3/1918 with Soldiers Effects. Can't remember seeing that before. Also PA 24028 mother at 27 Royal St. Withington
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Tim,
Thanks once again for your help.
Charlie
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Charlie,
https://twitter.com/SKnight1921/status/647879487678509056 (https://twitter.com/SKnight1921/status/647879487678509056) - Hope this works.
This provides info about L/Cpl William Chubb, of Manchesters who died as a PoW in Germany on 26/10/1918. His family were from Chorley. I can't find anything more about him and Chubb is hidden in icrc index. I wonder is you can find him?
Tim
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Tim,
Leave it with me I'll give it a go.
Charlie
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The latest update of the PoW database is now available on the main site.
Charlie
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Charlie,
https://twitter.com/SKnight1921/status/647879487678509056 (https://twitter.com/SKnight1921/status/647879487678509056) - Hope this works.
This provides info about L/Cpl William Chubb, of Manchesters who died as a PoW in Germany on 26/10/1918. His family were from Chorley. I can't find anything more about him and Chubb is hidden in icrc index. I wonder is you can find him?
Tim
Hi Tim,
He is 302038 L/Cpl William Clubb A Coy, 2/7th Bn, buried Niederzwehren cemetery. He died of heart failure. PA 39802 & 42343.
Charlie
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Thanks Charlie,
I read Chubb - not Clubb
As an edit here's some info, with few new bits:-
Rank:
Lance Corporal
Service No:
302038
Date of Death:
26/10/1918
Age:
23
Regiment/Service:
Manchester Regiment
2nd/7th Bn. (BWM VM Roll says previously 2/8th)
Grave Reference:
V. G. 7.
Cemetery:
NIEDERZWEHREN CEMETERY, KASSEL
Additional Information:
Son of Margaret Clubb, of 5, Alexandra St., Chorley, Lancs., and the late Charles Clubb.
Extra from DeRuvigny Roll
Birth Date: 8 Feb 1895
Birth Place: Chorley, Lancaster
Enlistment Date: 17 Apr 1916 France 1 March 1917. Captured St Quentin 21/3/1918
Death Date: 26 Oct 1918
Death Place: Meschede, Germany (where he was originally buried)
Father: Charles S Clubb Edu Hollishead St Congregational School. Former clerk and (Dacca Twist) Rylands & Sons Chorley Branch.
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The newspaper used a phonetic spelling :D - makes a change from the ICRC
Charlie
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PA 2191 lists a Pte William Hughes, 3rd Bn, so presumably 1st or 2nd Bn, suffered a chest wound and was held at M�nster in May 1915. Any ideas which William Hughes he is please.
Charlie
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Thanks for trying Mack. Have you come across the name "Hall" in the ICRC files. I've gone through all the names beginning with "Ha" and Hall isn't there. I do not for one moment believe that no Halls were taken Prisoner.
Charlie
halls have been buggin me for ages,ive tried halle,hull,hill etc but nowts showing up,ive seen halls in lists,but cant find them in the index.
mack ;D
Mack, I received this mail from the ICRC regarding an enquiry I made as to the whereabouts of the name Hall
Dear Sir,
We acknowledge receipt of your request of 28.08.2015 and thank you for your interest in our First World War archives.
Unfortunately we regret to inform you that we cannot help you with your request at the present time. This is because some of our archives are not yet online and some are not physically available as they are being treated to ensure their preservation. This is the case with the information that you requested.
We therefore ask you to be patient a little while longer.
All of the work needed to ensure that our First World War archives are accessible should be completed in 2016. Please rest assured that we are doing our utmost to complete the process as quickly as we can.
Thank you for your understanding.
Yours faithfully,
Magali Chahlaoui-Girod
ICRC Archives
So it looks like the database is not complete as was thought!
Charlie
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PA7712 refers to a Sgt William Jogwill? his index card is cross referenced to Tugwell, the nearest I can find in the Manchesters MiCs is a F/91 Charles S Tugwell but he is also Tank Corps. Any ideas please.
The J's are turning out to be a bit of a nightmare, they are the worst so far for phonetic spellings and also for the first letter of the name being wrong. So far I have found quire a few names which should start with Y F G and T among them!
Charlie
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this ones got me beat Charlie
mack ;D
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this ones got me beat Charlie
mack ;D
Thanks Mack but I find that hard to believe ;D
Charlie
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PA 27195 CSM? John Jonny? C Coy 17Bn any ideas on this one please. I've tried the surname with wild cards at both ends but nothing remotely near turns up.
Thanks
Charlie
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Charlie,
The War Diary and Official History just lists missing Officers and I can't find your man on any Rolls. I don't know all the CSMs at that stage, but wonder if there is an error in the name. CSM Albert Rhodes & H Brindley MM were Killed in the action.
Tim
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Thanks Tim, I checked through some others on PA27195 as there seemed to be an unusual amount of CSMs listed together, they all seem to marry up with their MiCs. I also tried J John the nearest that that brought up was 37970 Cpl John F St John.
Charlie
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The latest update of the database is now available on the main site.
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37970 John Francis St John completed his service with the 1st Garrison Bttn (see VM BWM Roll), which was away from hostilities. I doubt this is your man.
T
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Thanks Tim, I thought it was a long shot but it's always good to have a second opinion.
Charlie
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your man is.
CSM 43403 john,edward young
born 24-2-91 London
C.coy
17th manchesters
POW 22-3-18
langensalza.
I aint getting beaten twice on the trot ;)
mack ;D
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Well done Mack. CSM Young gained DCM for his part of the action on 22/3/1918.
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Great stuff, thanks Mack
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Is the correct Battalion for 11096 Thomas Kenny known? ICRC gives him as both 18th and 19th.
Thanks
Charlie
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Is the correct Battalion for 11096 Thomas Kenny known? ICRC gives him as both 18th and 19th.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
he was in the 18th battalion,captured 30-7-16,lived at 25 Cyprus st,stretford,aged 22,occupation fitter,he was repatriated at Leith on 3-1-19 and admitted to the 2nd Scottish gen hospital at edinboro then transferred to the 2nd western gen hospital Manchester on 12-1-19,he had been injured in the left leg at guillemont and suffered from shell shock.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, he must have been one of the last to be repatriated, the majority would seem to be home by the end of 1918.
Charlie
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Thanks Mack, he must have been one of the last to be repatriated, the majority would seem to be home by the end of 1918.
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
the otherThomas Kennys mentioned in the red cross lists are the same man,he was in B.coy not C.coy,the Thomas john Kenny is also the same man,the service number quoted[10254]is probably his POW camp number.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I had already got them as the same man. He also suffered a shrapnel wound to the head. They moved him around quite a bit as well, a Field Hospital, Hospital in Paderborn and five different PoW camps.
Charlie
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Could someone look up the Battalion for 8206 Hugh Alfred Knight please, the ICRC records only list him as D Coy.
Thanks
Charlie
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An 8206 Andrew Knight received BWM/VM, noted as 17th Bttn, then 19th and returning to 17th Bttn. Noted as E Knight on Star Roll disembarked 8/11/15. Transferrred to Reserve Class Z 16/3/1919.
There was an 8210 A Knight in XIII Pln, D Coy and the Bugle Band. Don't know if this is the same man. I can't find 8206 in the Roll.
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Many thanks Tim, 17th Bn fits in nicely with where he was taken - Roupy 22.03.18. 8206 Knight has a MiC, 8210 shows as William Kitt, could it be a typo in the roll? I have noted the correct christian name, the ICRC has him as "Hughes" Alfred Knight. I presumed - wrongly - that they had mis-spellt Hugh.
Charlie
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the correct name is 8206 Alfred,hughes knight
son of littensor,henry+elizabeth,ann knight
born 19-12-1894
before they moved to blackley,the family lived in west gorton
Alfred was a tailors cutter
his brother 35041 George,henry knight was killed at arras with the 12th battalion on 25th april 1917
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, it makes a change for the ICRC to have got it right ;D
Charlie
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The latest update of the database has been uploaded to the main site - thanks Pete.
Charlie
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Has anyone with access to the medal rolls time/willingness to help fill some gaps in the database. There are about 70-80 cases were information regarding which Bn they served in is missing from the ICRC records. If so let me know and then we can arrange to use the same hymn sheet to sing from.
Thanks
Charlie
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Has anyone with access to the medal rolls time/willingness to help fill some gaps in the database. There are about 70-80 cases were information regarding which Bn they served in is missing from the ICRC records. If so let me know and then we can arrange to use the same hymn sheet to sing from.
Thanks
Charlie
me Charlie
mack ;D
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Brilliant Mack thanks, I'll PM you with what I hope is a reasonable idea.
Charlie
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Brilliant Mack thanks, I'll PM you with what I hope is a reasonable idea.
Charlie
don't do loads of typing Charlie,his service number,surname and initial will be enough,you can post them 10,15 or 20 at a time if you want.or the whole list
mack ;D
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Mack
I only have partial information (eg ?/6th and 1/?th) regarding the Battalion in which the following were serving with when captured. Can you help please.
40921 Cpl Thomas,edward Kirk.16th
301754 Pte James Rose Hickinbotham.2/6
Capt George Hinchcliffe.attatched from the manchesters to the 2/4th Berkshire regt
302419 Pte Reginald.dean Horobin.2/6th
275862 Sgt Andrew Forbes.2/7th
53511 Lewis Henry Graham.2/7th
302565 L/Cpl Rees Gribble.2/6th
Thanks
Charlie
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L/Cpl Alfred Leigh - I'm not sure that he is Manchesters. PA5054 leads to a dead end - it should be 5045. Any thoughts please.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3550972/3/2/
Charlie
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Charlie
these are the only Alfred's in the Manchester's I can find
non were POW's
Alfred Leigh Manchester Regiment, 8 LN Lan R
44409, 12753
Alfred Leigh Manchester Regiment, Labour Corps 48614, 378592
Alfred W Leigh Manchester Regiment 295
Timberman
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Thanks Timberman, that rules him out I think. I wonder if what looks like "app" before Manchesters has any bearing on things. I found his second entry under PA5045 a hospital list from 29 May 16, it doesn't throw any more light on things.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
neils right,non of these Alfred leighs were POWs,i ant find a man with this name who was a POW around this time from the manchesters
mack ;D
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Mack, thanks for your input and updating my post.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
I have a pile of POWs to add.heres one that's in the database,but theres no info for him.
2477 h.batten.he is bandsman/stretcher bearer 2477 henry batten,55 hope st,hurst,ashton,at limburg,repat at dover 4-12-18
mack ;D
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Charlie.
I have just realised something,there are some errors in the database.it concerns the 19th manchesters,those captured before February 1918 were 19th batt,those taken after,would be with the 16th,17th or whichever battalion they were posted to.
CSM 12256 fred nuttall is down as 16th batt,it should be 19th batt,he was taken on 23rd july 1916,most of those taken before February 1918 were posted to their respective battalions[16th/17th batts] while POWs.
mack ;D
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1530 john eyres,captured 26-8-14
10408 Thomas hamer.captured 13-5-16 wahn
9123 john,j fenton,name was john,thomas fenton,sandall st,miles platting,april 1917 at sprottau camp
44948 sgt William bolus,9 wright st,wolverhampton,2/6th batt
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Charlie.
I have just realised something,there are some errors in the database.it concerns the 19th manchesters,those captured before February 1918 were 19th batt,those taken after,would be with the 16th,17th or whichever battalion they were posted to.
CSM 12256 fred nuttall is down as 16th batt,it should be 19th batt,he was taken on 23rd july 1916,most of those taken before February 1918 were posted to their respective battalions[16th/17th batts] while POWs.
mack ;D
Mack,
Out of the 100 19th Bn entries in the database only two are affected:
12029 Cpl Thomas Burton
48640 Pte Harry Fairbrother
Do you have their correct Battalions?
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
I have a pile of POWs to add.heres one that's in the database,but theres no info for him.
2477 h.batten.he is bandsman/stretcher bearer 2477 henry batten,55 hope st,hurst,ashton,at limburg,repat at dover 4-12-18
mack ;D
Great stuff Mack, post them as you think fit.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
2477 h.batten.he is bandsman/stretcher bearer 2477 henry batten,55 hope st,hurst,ashton,at limburg,repat at dover 4-12-18
mack ;D
Mack
His address shows up as the same as 1285 Dmr Harry Button 2nd Bn, are they brothers and one is a typo? The names are correct according to the MiCs.
Charlie
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Charlie
On the rolls it has
12029 Cpl Thomas Burton
19th Bn and then 12th Bn
48640 Pte Harry Fairbrother
19th Bn att. 21st TMB
Timberman
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Thanks Timberman
-
hiya Charlie.
2477 h.batten.he is bandsman/stretcher bearer 2477 henry batten,55 hope st,hurst,ashton,at limburg,repat at dover 4-12-18
mack ;D
Mack
His address shows up as the same as 1285 Dmr Harry Button 2nd Bn, are they brothers and one is a typo? The names are correct according to the MiCs.
Charlie
hiya Charlie
1285 harry button wasn't a POW,he transferred to the 14th batt tank corps
2477 henry batten was in the 2/6th batt,previously 1st battalion
mack ;D
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Charlie
On the rolls it has
12029 Cpl Thomas Burton
19th Bn and then 12th Bn
48640 Pte Harry Fairbrother
19th Bn att. 21st TMB
Timberman
hiya Charlie.
harry fairbrother is listed in the medal rolls and the red cross archives as 19th manchesters,he was captured at st.quentin on 21st march 1918,he couldn't have been with the 19th battalion because they were disbanded in February 1918,ime fairly certain he was one of the TMB captured at Manchester hill with the 16th battalion.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack,
Thats probably explains why I couldn't find Harry Button in the Red Cross records ;D
Charlie
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Is the Battalion for Lt Malcolm Liggett known please?
Charlie
-
The ICRC lists a 41168 Samuel Light 3rd Bn, DoW either 5 or 7 May 1917
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1730071/3/2/
41168 is Ernest White later E Yorks he is not recorded as DoW. Nothing comes close either on CWGC or the MiCs. Any ideas please.
Charlie
-
Charlie
Went over to France with the 21st Bn Royal Fusiliers
Then commissioned into the 12th Bn Manchester's
Name: M Liggett
Rank: 2/Lt.
Regiment: 12th Battalion. Manchester Regiment
Date Missing: 24 Mar 1918
Repatriation Date: 18 Dec 1918
Record Number: 3817
Neil
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Thanks Timberman,
The repatriation date isn't recorded by the ICRC, so thats a good find as well.
Charlie
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The ICRC lists a 41168 Samuel Light 3rd Bn, DoW either 5 or 7 May 1917
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1730071/3/2/
41168 is Ernest White later E Yorks he is not recorded as DoW. Nothing comes close either on CWGC or the MiCs. Any ideas please.
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
this man doesn't seem to exist,according to his details,he was 3rd manchesters,E.coy,the 3rd battalion didn't serve overseas and non of the battalions that did,didnt have an E.coy,the german report says he was buried in the cemetery at douai,theres no man that comes anywhere near to being him,not under any name or number,theres another soldier in the same list.arthur berks,12 KRRC,he doesn't seem to exist either.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, having done the same searches as you seem to have done, thats the conclusion I came to as well. It must be assumed that the Germans did bury someone, but who he was we will never know.
Charlie
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Samuel light is buried in the same grave as pte 25931 w.h griffin,but the graves registration team crossed him off the register and put him down as a unknown british soldier,they did the same with pte berks,its a bit odd,these men had been recorded as being buried at douai by the germans,so why did the CWGC change them to unknowns.
mack ;D
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Well done Mack good work. I guess they changed them to unknowns as their names as written by the Germans did not tie in with anyone known to be missing. As you know there are 5 Samuel Lights in the MiCs and 1 in the CWGC database and he has a known grave.
Charlie
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Samuel light is buried in the same grave as pte 25931 w.h griffin,but the graves registration team crossed him off the register and put him down as a unknown british soldier,they did the same with pte berks,its a bit odd,these men had been recorded as being buried at douai by the germans,so why did the CWGC change them to unknowns.
mack ;D
I wonder if this is Samuel Light
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1439249/3/2/
He is listed as Samuel Lord and Lord Samuel. He is recorded as 352320 Samuel Lord 1/9th Bn on the Thiepval Memorial, died 25.04.1917. Were the 1/9th anywhere near Douai at that time?
Charlie
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There are two Lloyds mixed up on the following:
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/64434/3/2/
Charlie Lloyds is 25523 Charlie Lloyd 2nd Bn, died 11.10.1918
Chas F Lloyd is as the index card shows, 202329 Charles Frederick Lloyd. CWGC gives his date of death as 21.03.1918. I do not think he was ever a PoW, does anyone have anything to the contrary?
Charlie
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Re Samuel Lord.
The 1/9th moved to Harquaix on 18th April 1917, about 25 miles from Douai. Then on to Epehy on 22/23 April where they had several casualties.
Both an S Lord and H Lord are shown on the 9th Bn roll of honour.
-
Thanks Robert,
The area would fit and I suppose 25th April could have been the last time he was seen alive by his comrades.
Charlie
-
Can anyone throw any light on Albert Lorett
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3764479/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Nothing with that name in the MIC's
only these listed
UK, Naval Officer and Rating Service Records, 1802-1919
Draft, Enlistment and Service
View Image
Name: James H Lorett
Military: 1 Jul 1895
Military: 19 Nov 1895
British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Pension Records
View Image
Name: Bridget Lorett
Spouse: William Farthing
Marriage: 14 Jun 1886 - Ipswich
Residence: 1915
UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972
Awards & Decorations of Honour
View Image
Name: Richard Frank Lorett
Military: 1944-1963
Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900
Soldier, Veteran & Prisoner Rolls & Lists
View Image
Name: Charles Lorett
Birth: abt 1777 - Gleno, Tyrone
Military: 7 Sep 1808
UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929
Soldier, Veteran & Prisoner Rolls & Lists
View Image
Name: Arthur Lorett
Death: 15 Apr 1918 - France
-
Checked this one
Name: Arthur Lorett
Gender: Male
Death Date: 15 Apr 1918
Death Place: France
Rank: Private
Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps
Regimental Number: A 201155
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hiya Charlie.
I cant find a man with this name in the manchesters,the POW list and place of capture means he was in the 1st battalion at Armentieres.
mack ;D
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Thanks Timberman and Mack. I suppose it is inevitable that some will remain a mystery, but with everyones help I think only 2 or 3 have remained elusive. Considering there are something like 2600 entries in the database I reckon that is fantastic.
Charlie
-
The latest update is now on the main site. Many thanks to all who have helped over the last year.
Charlie
-
Good work Charlie,
I've been cross-checking some 'Missing' CWS men and you had a 100% hit rate. It's a very useful resource.
Cheers
Tim
-
Good work Charlie,
I've been cross-checking some 'Missing' CWS men and you had a 100% hit rate. It's a very useful resource.
Cheers
Tim
Thanks Tim, it's good to hear that it has helped you.
Charlie
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New in the last update.
In the last update I have added a comment for some entries in the Battalion column, it applies to those who were on detachment at the time of capture. It is indicated by a yellow triangle in the top righthand corner of the cell, a comments box should open when the cursor hovers over the cell. The triangle would seem not to show on an i-Pad (and perhaps similar tablets) unless the document is downloaded.
Charlie
-
A Battalion please, if known, for 22271 Sgt Harry Lunn.
Thanks
Charlie
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Does anyone know who this is please, ICRC lists a WMC Luney 2nd Bn. Nothing seems to show up in the MiCs.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3082272/3/2/
Charlie
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And another mysterious one, 27701 Daniel Lunner 2/7th Bn, again nothing obvious in the MiCs.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3100116/3/2/
Charlie
-
Does anyone know who this is please, ICRC lists a WMC Luney 2nd Bn. Nothing seems to show up in the MiCs.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3082272/3/2/
Charlie
Found him and it was staring me in the face ;D - 3312 William McCluney
-
16287 Harry McCoombs 16th Bn:
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3151761/3/2/
I have tried McC*, MacC*, Mac* and 16* in the Manchesters MiCs and nothing. Has anyone any suggestions please.
Chharlie
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Charlie,
Confused with this http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1688768/3/2/ (http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1688768/3/2/)
Seems to be 8975 William Whittle from 17th Bttn, but strange number on record.
T
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Tim,
The record does show 8975 which is correct. I agree the 9 does look odd, it looks to me as though the typist hit the "." key by mistake and then overtyped it. If you look at the fullstops elsewhere on the document they are very big in proportion to the numbers/letters and are big enough to distort the correct numeral.
Charlie
-
And another mysterious one, 27701 Daniel Lunner 2/7th Bn, again nothing obvious in the MiCs.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3100116/3/2/
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
he is 277101 Daniel sumner,21 Gladstone st,west gorton,2/7th battalion[from gorton absent voters register]
mack ;D
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16287 Harry McCoombs 16th Bn:
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3151761/3/2/
I have tried McC*, MacC*, Mac* and 16* in the Manchesters MiCs and nothing. Has anyone any suggestions please.
Chharlie
your right with his name Charlie,harry mccoobs,26 golbourne st,wigan,A.coy,16th battalion
mack ;D
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A Battalion please, if known, for 22271 Sgt Harry Lunn.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
act/sgt harry lunn was in the 23rd battalion,lived at 2 halstead ave,chorlton cum hardy,captured 27-1-18,he was posted to the 22nd manchesters on 2-5-18 while a prisoner,the 23rd were disbanded on 16th feb 1918.
mack ;D
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battalion info for those already in the database.
2231.pownall.2/6th
2234.price.19th
2250.ranson.1/9th attatched to RE
2251.capt leonard Rathbone.17th
2260.bertram,stewart reece.12th
2270 2/Lt henry,tucker ringham.16th.captured spoil bank tunnel
2273.roberts.19th
2282.robinson.1/9th
2302.rowley.19th
2360.james,edward simpson.19th
2375.smith.A.coy,17th batt,14 Edward st,ashton
2386 spence,number is 31328,18th batt
2403 Stockton.17th
2410.stuttard.2/6th
2420.350887 Charles,arthur taylor.2/9th
2428.thos taylor.2nd
2434.thackwell.2/9th
2468.trow.20th
2508.351485 warberg.16th
2522.53 john webb.2nd
2525.welsh.2/6th
2542.john,ernest whitworth.18th
2556.williams.19th
2562.williamson.19th
2569.winterburn.19th
2584.worth.2/5th
2597,harold,appleby,tapp wyrill.19th
2602.york.12th
2604.young.24th
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Mack,
Many thanks for all that, all updated :)
Sumner I would have never found in a month of Sundays, great stuff.
I guess Harry McCooms MiC has gone missing.
Chharlie
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Mack,
Many thanks for all that, all updated :)
Sumner I would have never found in a month of Sundays, great stuff.
I guess Harry McCooms MiC has gone missing.
Chharlie
I had trouble with the name when I was searching for his relative who was killed at Gallipoli with the 5th manchesters,there were too many ways of spelling the name,but I found him in the end,i,me to bleedin stubborn to give up Charlie.
if any become a pain to find,post them on here,and I will sort them out,trawling through all the red cross archive is a huge task,you don't want holding up trying to find mistranslations etc.
keep on going Charlie,your doing a brilliant job.
ps.your stark ravin mad taking on this database,but you have my respect,i have never come across a database of POWs for any regiment or corps,so yours will be the first complete one when its finished ;)
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack,
Everything progresses much easier with all the help I get. To quote Capt Blackadder "who would notice another madman here" :D :D :D
Charlie
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Tim,
The record does show 8975 which is correct. I agree the 9 does look odd, it looks to me as though the typist hit the "." key by mistake and then overtyped it. If you look at the fullstops elsewhere on the document they are very big in proportion to the numbers/letters and are big enough to distort the correct numeral.
Charlie
I grasp it now. William doesn't seem to be on the database. He died in a German Hospital in Jeumont according to Soldiers Effects.
William Whittle Erquelinnes Communal Cemetery Lance Corporal 8975, 17th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 26 October 1918 Age 27 Son of William and Ann Whittle, of Manchester; husband of Ethel Whittle, of "Westleigh," Hazelbadge Rd., Poynton, Cheshire.
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Tim, I'll add him to the database. There are probably something like 1500 - 2000 names still missing from the database.
Charlie
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pte 303431 William Johnson and L/Cpl whittle were both in C.coy 17th manchesters,they were captured together at hollebeke,both ended up in friedrichfeld camp,pte Johnson was supposed to have died of sickness 5 days before whittle and buried in erquelinnes cemetery[grave 77]however when the grave registration team began recording the graves in the cemetery,they scrubbed johnsons name off the list and recorded the grave as a unknown british soldier.
in the history of this cemetery,it says that there are 66 identified casualties,3 of these have a special memorial because the exact spot of their graves could not be found,theres no mention of any unknowns buried in the cemetery.number of burials 67.
the only grave not listed in the casualties in this cemetery is grave 77[johnsons]
according to the medal roll,johnson was disembodied on 28-3-1919.
one thing puzzles me,how did whittle+johnson end up at erquellines from friedrichfeld.
mack ;D
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Tim,
The record does show 8975 which is correct. I agree the 9 does look odd, it looks to me as though the typist hit the "." key by mistake and then overtyped it. If you look at the fullstops elsewhere on the document they are very big in proportion to the numbers/letters and are big enough to distort the correct numeral.
Charlie
at the time of his death,L/Cpl whittle was living at 125 lightbowne rd,moston,he married ethel Morrison at holy trinity blackley on 7-1-18 while on leave,that was the last time she saw him.he was a fruit salesman.aged 26.born st.helens
mack ;D
I grasp it now. William doesn't seem to be on the database. He died in a German Hospital in Jeumont according to Soldiers Effects.
William Whittle Erquelinnes Communal Cemetery Lance Corporal 8975, 17th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 26 October 1918 Age 27 Son of William and Ann Whittle, of Manchester; husband of Ethel Whittle, of "Westleigh," Hazelbadge Rd., Poynton, Cheshire.
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The whole thing puzzles me. If there are 66 identified burials and 67 graves how can there not be an unknown? PA43123 gives L/Cpl Whittle as being buried in grave 86, which according to the CWGC is Pte Herbert Stevenson. L/Cpl Whittle is according to the CWGC GRR in German grave 125. All the other grave numbers tally with the original German ones with the exception of 77. So where did grave 125 appear from as it is not listed by the Germans???
I take it then that Pte Johnson survived as he was disembodied and has no CWGC record.
One thing I can with 99% certainty explain, is how they ended up in Erquellines. There are two possible explanations, I think the second one is most probable:
1. They never arrived in Friedrichsfeld and were retained in the German echelon area, but registered in Friedrichsfeld. There is evidence to show that Limburg and Stendal were used just to register PoWs while they were elsewhere, but there is nothing as far as I am aware to connect Friedrichsfeld to this.
2. I had a look at some other PoW dead buried at Erquellines and couple stand out. Pte Henry Piggott of the Y&L is one of them. He appears on two lists of those who died, he is also listed in the same list as L/Cpl Whittle as being at Friedrichsfeld. PA43124 lists him just as being buried at Erquellines, the second one PA43134 states that his death was reported by the PoW collection and distribution centre Friedrichsfeld even though he died at a Field Hospital at Erquellines. This suggests to me that he was sent back from Friedrichsfeld to the German echelon area to work and died there. I think this also what happened to L/Cpl Whittle
It is interesting to note that the German records date from 1919 and 1920.
Charlie
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William Johnson had a 1914/15 Star from 1/10th Bttn Roll. This says he was disembodied 28/2/1919. Also served in 2/8th, 19th & 17th Bttns.
The second page of grave registration indicates there were originally 2 graves marked up for William Whittle.
T
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The whole thing puzzles me. If there are 66 identified burials and 67 graves how can there not be an unknown? PA43123 gives L/Cpl Whittle as being buried in grave 86, which according to the CWGC is Pte Herbert Stevenson. L/Cpl Whittle is according to the CWGC GRR in German grave 125. All the other grave numbers tally with the original German ones with the exception of 77. So where did grave 125 appear from as it is not listed by the Germans???
I take it then that Pte Johnson survived as he was disembodied and has no CWGC record.
One thing I can with 99% certainty explain, is how they ended up in Erquellines. There are two possible explanations, I think the second one is most probable:
1. They never arrived in Friedrichsfeld and were retained in the German echelon area, but registered in Friedrichsfeld. There is evidence to show that Limburg and Stendal were used just to register PoWs while they were elsewhere, but there is nothing as far as I am aware to connect Friedrichsfeld to this.
2. I had a look at some other PoW dead buried at Erquellines and couple stand out. Pte Henry Piggott of the Y&L is one of them. He appears on two lists of those who died, he is also listed in the same list as L/Cpl Whittle as being at Friedrichsfeld. PA43124 lists him just as being buried at Erquellines, the second one PA43134 states that his death was reported by the PoW collection and distribution centre Friedrichsfeld even though he died at a Field Hospital at Erquellines. This suggests to me that he was sent back from Friedrichsfeld to the German echelon area to work and died there. I think this also what happened to L/Cpl Whittle
It is interesting to note that the German records date from 1919 and 1920.
Charlie
I know through previous research that POWs are the responsibility of the german army corps that captured them and the corps are responsible for the camps they are kept in,friedrichfeld was under the german 7th corps,it was the admin centre for many working commandos,its also the postal station for a large number of POWs who have never been in the camp,now I get it,DOH aint I the idiot.
mack ;D
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The correct spelling please for 9410 Thomas Makin/Mackin/McKin. The MiCs give both McKin and Makin.
Thanks
Charlie
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A George Madgwick 19th Bn is listed by the ICRC. There are 5 listed in the MiCs but no Manchesters. Help please
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3316580/3/2/
Charlie
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The correct spelling please for 9410 Thomas Makin/Mackin/McKin. The MiCs give both McKin and Makin.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
in the list published by the 2nd battalion in 1914,hes listed as Thomas machin
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
George madgwick wasn't a Manchester,i have searched through everything I have,i think his name was transcribed wrong by the germans,i did a daily report for the 19th batt many years ago,and nobody resembleing this name is amongst them[see our site search engine for,19th daily casualty report]
mack ;D
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Many thanks Mack,
I'll go with the fourth variation - Machin it is :)
The casualty list is a fantastic piece of work, it's surprising what really is on this site.
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
George madgwick wasn't a Manchester,i have searched through everything I have,i think his name was transcribed wrong by the germans,i did a daily report for the 19th batt many years ago,and nobody resembleing this name is amongst them[see our site search engine for,19th daily casualty report]
mack ;D
He was probably London Regt/Royal Fusiliers, I found another one attached to the 19th Bn taken at the same time.
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41491 Stanley Marshall - he is given as both 2nd Bn taken Le Sars and 22nd Bn taken Beaumont Hamel, any ideas which is correct please.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/349913/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
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41491 Stanley Marshall - he is given as both 2nd Bn taken Le Sars and 22nd Bn taken Beaumont Hamel, any ideas which is correct please.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/349913/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
Stanley was in the 2nd battalion
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack.
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Is anything more known about CQMS Maguire 19th Bn apart from what is already in the database. ICRC index cards for the name Maguire or McGuire are notable for their absence, there are probably less than 10 all told. I'm guessing that like "Hall" they are missing or have not yet been digitized.
Charlie
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I cant get into the database Charlie,i think my PC has had it,all I have is his address 64 collyhurst st,manchester.
mack ;D
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I cant get into the database Charlie,i think my PC has had it,all I have is his address 64 collyhurst st,manchester.
mack ;D
Apart from his number, rank and name that is all there is in the database.
Charlie
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The section COOMBE (Royal) Air Force has 303 index cards, 302 of these look to be blank. They have been uploaded showing the reverse side, the information is contained on the other side. They contain names from all Regiments from COOMBE through to and including COOPER. To turn the card cover click on the arrow chasing it's tail when the "more information about this person" is shown. I think it maybe worthwhile doing this with other cards when the displayed side is full - who knows what may be found.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/coombe
Charlie
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I went through them today and found three Manchesters. A pain in the neck but worth it ;D
Charlie
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hiya Charlie,there are no men listed with the name muchan in the RC archives,heres one for the database from my own archives
17991 Frederick,august muchan
17th battalion
B.coy
captured 23-4-17
repat 25-12-18
54 Bolton st,gorton
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I've added him in. He's probably indexed under W ;D
Charlie
Mack are you having a bad day?
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hiya Charlie.
when I typed in muchan,nothing came up ???.good find mate
mack ;D
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Mack,
Using the ICRC database has driven me as daft as the people who digitized it ;D
Normaly entering Muchan into a search engine would take you to names beginning with MUC or in the worst case to MAC. It happens quite often that the search engine takes you past the name and gives the impression that the name doesn't exist. In this case it takes you through to MUDD when in actual effect MAC starts under MOYLE (the section before). The last 15 or so names under Moyle start with Mac*.
I can explain a lot of things but not what was in their heads when they digitized the database! Just carelessness I think, as they use the same alpabet in Switzerland as we do.
Charlie
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A Battalion please, for 201930 Pte Luke Merrington.
Thanks
Charlie
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A Battalion please, for 201930 Pte Luke Merrington.
Thanks
Charlie
2/5th battalion Charlie
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
heres a few amendments and additions,i,me clearing through my database,many of them will already be in the RC lists so I can bin those ones.
17.agnew shrapnel in leg
1216.gillett[signaller]grenade wounds right arm,4 clough st,bolton
1700 a.e Hutchinson,GSW left arm,9 allen st,worksop
1806.geo jones,31 the grove,eccles
1929,c.lambert,repat Leith 18-12-18
1963.leathley,repat dover 8-12-18,captured 13-5-16,5 council st,hulme
2096.mckiernan,shrapnel left thigh and left shoulder,26 Carmen st,ancoats
2164.joe murray[bomber]A.coy,POW 23-4-17 wounded left hand,at langensalza
2178.b.newton,16th batt,B.coy
2216 h.postles,middle name fryer,8 hooker st,northwich,D.coy,19th battalion,GSW right shoulder,at minden
2216.w.c page,20th manchesters,died at 5.30am at quedlinburg hospital,buried quedlinburg central cemetery
2348.j.e Rushton.died 15-5-17,buried soest osthafen cemetery
a addition pte 28838 jeremiah canniffe,17 middlewood st,harpurhey,19th battalion,POW 23-7-16,GSWs elbow+neck,repat to 2nd Scottish gen hospital,edinboro then to 2nd western gen,manchester 11-1-19
a addition.Lt Arthur james aldred,288 brookland terrace,worsley rd,swinton,7th batt,POW 21-3-18,repat 11-12-18
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, all added or updated. Jeremiah Canniffe was already in the database as Cunliffe. I must have thought he was a southerner who couldn't pronounce Cunliffe properly ;D ;D
Charlie
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4 more Charlie
997.j.english middle name henry,12 garden st,withy grove Manchester
1090.a.fittis,2 Liverpool st,salford
1480.middle name bright.
1712.g.irwin,22 john st,moss side
mack ;D
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1687.h.hunt,94 turk lane Oldham
1790.a.jones[bugler] 13 bank st,hulme,captured trones wood 11th july 1916,repat at thannington camp 15-1-19
1806.g.jones,31 the grove,eccles,the Coventry address was where his wife+son stayed while he was away.
1870.h.kemp,wellington rd,eccles
2033.macaulay,brindley st,brindle heath
one to add.26516 Edward lowe,30 church terrace,stockport,POW 23-7-16,19th battalion,repat 14-4-18
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, all updated. Turk Lane is more likely Turf Lane in Chadderton.
Charlie
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Any ideas who this is please, he is just given as 2/Lt Miller
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2392078/3/2/
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A Battalion please for 277113 L/Cpl Alfred Mellor. It would appear from the MiCs that he was decorated, any ideas with which one.
Thanks
Charlie
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hiya Charlie.
the only officer captured with the surname miller was 2/Lt r.t miller,taken 3-9-14 with the 2nd battalion,he was sent to Switzerland on 12th august 1916 and repatriated to England on 23-3-18,MIDs[haig]17-2-15.
its possible the two PA numbers refer to two different officers,Lt ralph,m miller was reported killed on 30th july 1916 with 17th batt,they may have got both cross referenced.
mack ;D
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A Battalion please for 277113 L/Cpl Alfred Mellor. It would appear from the MiCs that he was decorated, any ideas with which one.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
2/7th battalion
unfortunately my PC is nearly had it,it wont accept my gallantry award roll CD so I cant help with the decoration bit.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
the only officer captured with the surname miller was 2/Lt r.t miller,taken 3-9-14 with the 2nd battalion,he was sent to Switzerland on 12th august 1916 and repatriated to England on 23-3-18,MIDs[haig]17-2-15.
its possible the two PA numbers refer to two different officers,Lt ralph,m miller was reported killed on 30th july 1916 with 17th batt,they may have got both cross referenced.
mack ;D
Ralph Marillier Miller's death was witnessed by his CO who wrote to his father “I found young Miller looking after another officer who had been badly gassed [presumably 2nd Lieutenant Owen]; he got up to explain…and a [Gas]shell hit him full…A very capable young officer; everything I gave him to do was well done. His brother officers loved him.” The POW must be RT Miller?
Tim
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Thanks Tim and Mack, I don't think it is 2/Lt RT Miller either, PA7560 is reporting a death in 1914, which is a bit strange as the list is dated December 1916, PA7720 is reporting someone being moved from Le Cateau to Cambrai in 1917. None of this fits in with RT Miller's movements. One thing is for certain, whoever he was, he was not with the Manchesters.
Charlie
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Charlie.
I think this could be your man
Lt inglis,rawley francis miller
captured 11th sept 1914 died of wounds two days later in war hospital college Fenelon,cambrai
2nd royal inniskillin fusiliers
buried port de paris cemetery,cambrai
mack ;D
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I think you're right. Just for interest:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205385846
Charlie
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Battalions please for the following:
75496 Pte M Mengins (first name as well if known)
62172 Pte Frederick Mitchell
42855 Pte Richard Moat
Thanks
Charlie
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Can you make anything of this man:
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4732868/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
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75496 myles MINGINS.1st batt
62172 Mitchell 2nd batt
42855.moat.2/7th batt
Charlie.
just out of interest,where was mingins captured,i ask because the 1st battalion wasn't in france,it was in the middle east
mack ;D
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Thanks for your help Mack I really appreciate it.
There is only a repat list for him - 27 Nov 1918, he had suffered a GSW to the head. The index card shows him as 1st Bn, I had assumed that he had come from France - all the others would appear to have, so dismissed the idea that he could be 1st Bn. I don't think I have found an index card for anyone taken outside Europe. I thought he was from a 1st line TF Bn and the Bn had been falsely annotated. His MiCs at the NA give him as ex T1/3478 ASC.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2915323/3/2/
61108 Thomas Miles - did he come from your archives or did you find him in the ICRC records? I haven't found an index card for him, I've only by chance found him on a repat list.
Charlie
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61108 Thomas miles came from the RC archive Charlie,i think he may have come under mills but not sure.
mack. ;D
p.s I cant find john monty
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Thanks Mack I've found Miles under Myles doh!
Harold Moss 20th Bn taken 1916. There are three in the MiCs 1628/350325, 26049 and 50388. Do you know which he is please?
Charlie
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Thanks Mack I've found Miles under Myles doh!
Harold Moss 20th Bn taken 1916. There are three in the MiCs 1628/350325, 26049 and 50388. Do you know which he is please?
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
that's young Harold moss[26049]he was wounded in the family jewels when captured,he was sent to langensalsa but he spent the war working on a farm near the village of esckardtsleben near langensalsa
mack ;D
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Ouch!
Thanks Mack
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hiya Charlie.
47972 bill mathers[William]bill was shot in the right ankle on 24th march 1917,he lay in a shell hole till the following day,a german sniper kept taking pot shots at him until he finally got him in the arm and the germans took him prisoner,his leg was amputated at douai on 9th april.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
by now you have probably found 11613 Arthur miller,his middle name was fenwick.
mack ;D
ps.do you have 7628 harry maylett.
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Mack
Thanks for the extra info on Arthur Miller and Bill Mathers, all added in. I've got Harry Maylett -16th Bn taken and wounded at Trones Wood, held at Cambrai, D�lmen and M�nster 2.
Charlie
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Mack
Can you clear up the number for John Morley 2nd Bn please, is he 8600 or 8601? The online MiCs give 8600, his RC records 8601. Both 6800 and 6801 are already in the database as either John or T Morley.
Thanks
Charlie
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He's listed as 8601 in the medal rolls
and on his MIC he's listed as a POW
Timberman
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Thanks Timberman
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Mack
Can you clear up the number for John Morley 2nd Bn please, is he 8600 or 8601? The online MiCs give 8600, his RC records 8601. Both 6800 and 6801 are already in the database as either John or T Morley.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
in my database he is 8601 john morley[2nd batt],22 simpson st,middleton Manchester,wounded and captured 26-8-14 at le.cateau,repat to Switzerland 8-1-17
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack.
24910 Frank Morley, an old entry in the database, is listed as 2/5th Bn taken 21.03.1916. There isn't an ICRC record for him and 24190 isn't Frank Morley. Any ideas please.
Charlie
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I can't sort this one out at all - 337869 Sgt Harry Morton, it doesn't look like a Manchesters number and nothing turns up in the MiCs under Morton or Norton.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1998998/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
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Thanks Mack.
24910 Frank Morley, an old entry in the database, is listed as 2/5th Bn taken 21.03.1916. There isn't an ICRC record for him and 24190 isn't Frank Morley. Any ideas please.
Charlie
does it give an address Charlie,he couldn't have been captured on 21-3-16,the 2/5th batt was still in England,it may have been entered in error in the database,theres no Manchester with the army number 24910.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack.
24910 Frank Morley, an old entry in the database, is listed as 2/5th Bn taken 21.03.1916. There isn't an ICRC record for him and 24190 isn't Frank Morley. Any ideas please.
Charlie
does it give an address Charlie,he couldn't have been captured on 21-3-16,the 2/5th batt was still in England,it may have been entered in error in the database,theres no Manchester with the army number 24910.
mack ;D
Mack,
That's all the information I have on him.
Charlie
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I would delete him Charlie,i think hes a error from the old days when we had barely any info,hes definitely not a Manchester,there may be a few others from the same period.
mack ;D
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Ok thanks Mack
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The latest database update is now on the main site.
Charlie
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Mack,
10175 Joseph Mullin 16th Bn, 6 Tudor St and J Mullins (no number) 16th Bn, 15 Worsley St, are both in the database but have no ICRC index cards, are they from your archives?
Two old entries
2769 Patrick Mullin 2nd Bn - no index card or further information.
9540 Munroe, no rank or forename, 2nd Bn - no index card, also 9540 is not as far as I can tell a Manchesters number.
Can you help with any of these.
Thanks
Charlie
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Another one I can't sort out
6981 Michael Murrison, held at Senne January 1915.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/427157/3/2/
Any ideas please
Charllie
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Mack,
10175 Joseph Mullin 16th Bn, 6 Tudor St and J Mullins (no number) 16th Bn, 15 Worsley St, are both in the database but have no ICRC index cards, are they from your archives?
Two old entries
2769 Patrick Mullin 2nd Bn - no index card or further information.
9540 Munroe, no rank or forename, 2nd Bn - no index card, also 9540 is not as far as I can tell a Manchesters number.
Can you help with any of these.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie,2769 p.mullin and 9540 munroe were from a list of 2nd battalion men captured in 1914,theres no 9540 in the MICs and no further info on 2769 other than him being in the POW list.
j.mullin was on the redoubt,he wrote to pte hopkinsons family when he was mortally wounded on the redoubt,but I could never determine what his number was,the address[worsley st]was from a list in the 16th battalion signal sections history.
10175 joe mullin was definitely in the RC records,but there was no card for him,he was in a camp list.
mack ;D
ps.the 1914 2nd batt list was quite reliable when it came to number and surname,but the Christian name initials sometimes needed checking.
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Another one I can't sort out
6981 Michael Murrison, held at Senne January 1915.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/427157/3/2/
Any ideas please
Charllie
evening Charlie.
I cant find anything,6981 was the number of walter hallam,2nd battalion,he wasn't captured,the date January 1915 means he could only have been in the 1st or 2nd battalion,but theres nobody resembling this name in the MICs.
mack ;D
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Mack, thanks for all that.
I've a feeling as though Murrison is the Morrison without a number in Timbermans 1st & 2nd PoW post http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8280.0
No one could find anything further on him at the time. I'll leave Munroe and Mullin in the database, who knows what might surface in the future.
Have you had any luck with Harry Morton?
Charlie
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Mack, thanks for all that.
I've a feeling as though Murrison is the Morrison without a number in Timbermans 1st & 2nd PoW post http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8280.0
No one could find anything further on him at the time. I'll leave Munroe and Mullin in the database, who knows what might surface in the future.
Have you had any luck with Harry Morton?
Charlie
no luck with harry Morton,i even checked the absent voters for the address he gave[sarah st,openshaw]this street isn't listed in the AVLs,its possible it was only a small street and nobody registered a vote
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack
I think this is 202500 Thomas Vaughan (2732 in the database), what do you think?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3694089/3/2/
As far as I can make out he was born 18.09.1896 in Hulme and his address is 22 Charles........., Salford
Charlie
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Another old one from the database
Henry Murray (no number), taken 01.03.1918, Strand Place. There isn't a Manchesters Henry Murray in the MiCs, but there is a Harry Murray 51496 later 31350 Border Regt. Could that be him?
Charlie
-
Another old one from the database
Henry Murray (no number), taken 01.03.1918, Strand Place. There isn't a Manchesters Henry Murray in the MiCs, but there is a Harry Murray 51496 later 31350 Border Regt. Could that be him?
Charlie
its very likely that's him,strand place was in stockport,i couldn't find any more about him Charlie.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
I think this is 202500 Thomas Vaughan (2732 in the database), what do you think?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3694089/3/2/
As far as I can make out he was born 18.09.1896 in Hulme and his address is 22 Charles........., Salford
Charlie
your fine with him Charlie,22 Charles st,salford,found him in the AVLs at that address
mack ;D
-
Great stuff, thanks Mack.
-
hiya Charlie.
just a couple of bit to add.
772.bertie cundy,full name Bertram,wilbourne cundy
976.james,h Edwards,middle name Harold
1989.fred leigh,he died on 3-1-19,he was in sprottau camp in late 1916,PA43135 has some info,dont know what it says,PA43135 wont come up when you click on to it,you will have to type in PA43130 and scroll up.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, all added.
PA43135 gives Fred Leigh as having died at Sprottau on 03.01.1919 aged 20, born "Grandforin"? Lancs. No cause of death is given.
-
hiya Charlie.
ime still clearing out my database,heres some more bits.
490.butterworth,captured 21-3-18,173 cotton tree lane,colne,repat dover 3-12-18
547.cassell,middle name henry,shrapnel head,repat 26-12-18
615.cliffe.was suffering from TB and heart trouble when repatriated
1458.30386 james hazlewood.1st batt,A.coy,thruston court,hereford,captured 8-3-16 mespot,died at Baghdad 25-4-16
2246.milbank.middle name george
2329.middle name Gordon,27 station rd,patricroft,POW 23-7-16,died 30-12-18.
2762 warburton.beechwood ave,romiley
2763.albert ward.15 grange st,rusholme
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, thats all been added.
Have you any information on these two please.
William Newton (no number), 17th Bn, taken St Quentin 21.03.1918, born and lived in Oldham (no address given). There are a few William Newtons in the MiCs, any idea which one he is please?
Another old one from the database: 17443 Ralph Nield, 20 Brunswick St Dukinfield. There isn't an index card for him, have you anything else?
Thanks
Charlie
-
50791 William newton,28 Phillips st,oldham,17th batt,A.coy,3rd platoon
nothing more on ralph nield,only his medal card,it says his correct name was neild
mack ;D
-
more clearing out Charlie.
707.j couttes,died 29-3-18
825.middle name joseph
990.middle name evan
1379.died le cateau 29-9-18
1741 middle name corless
1873.middle name Richard
1961.middle name Thomas
1984.george,william,oswald 22 broach st,bolton
1998.a.lever.from Salford
2034.mddle name berry
2536.house number 159 meadow st.
three to add.
53715 Charles longstaff,617 Blackburn rd,darwen,2/5th batt,died at valenciennes 27-9-18
L/cpl.201967 Sydney glindoni,152 brynn st,st Helens,2/5th batt,died 28-9-18
245108.william graham.31 court st,carlisle,2/6th batt,at gustrow,died enteritis 20-8-18
mack ;D
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Sydney Ratcliffe
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2182935/3/2/ (http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2182935/3/2/) PA 33294
Possible CWS man - Le Cateau Military Cemetery Private 251769, "C" Coy. 2nd/6th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 21 March 1918 Age 23. Son of James and Mary A. Ratcliffe, of 42, Daisy Bank, Newton Heath, Manchester.
Birth Place: Manchester Death Place: France and Flanders Enlistment Place: Manchester Type of Casualty: Killed in action
1911 resident Newton Heath with parents, employed as Apprentice Chemist. Father was Wholesale druggist.
-
Sydney Ratcliffe
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2182935/3/2/ (http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2182935/3/2/) PA 33294
Possible CWS man - Le Cateau Military Cemetery Private 251769, "C" Coy. 2nd/6th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 21 March 1918 Age 23. Son of James and Mary A. Ratcliffe, of 42, Daisy Bank, Newton Heath, Manchester.
Birth Place: Manchester Death Place: France and Flanders Enlistment Place: Manchester Type of Casualty: Killed in action
1911 resident Newton Heath with parents, employed as Apprentice Chemist. Father was Wholesale druggist.
Sydney wasn't killed on 21st march,he died of a gunshot wound in the military hospital at le cateau on 29th march
mack ;D
-
Thanks Tim and Mack, I'll add all that in.
Mack, your German is improving ;D ;D ;D
Charlie
-
210.bedford.lived 2 clare st,royton
398.fred,h brooks,middle name harry,army number 248012.
all buried le cateau,all died in the hospital there
1164 Gaffney middle name Longmire
1171.lived 3 halls cottage,horsham rd,sussex
1260.graham.middle name taylor,more in PA32012
1296.gregory.middle name grove
1379.hampson.died of general weakness[privation]29-9-19
1706.hyatt.middle name Charles,more in PA31793,died 24-9-18.
1951.lawes,middle name john,PA28358
also died in hospital le cateau,buried le cateau
Alfred oliver.PA34831-PA34000-PA37835
William,henry,elvery palmer.PA28092
john Thomas.PA33920,captured 24-3-18,died 22-8-18
joseph,edward Norton.PA28085
54477 dennis saunderson,7 Hubert st,london,captured 21-3-18,died 26-9-18 cardiac weakness
302398 Richard,henry boothman,spenbrook cottage,fence,burnley.PA27034
53637 William Sutton,2/6th batt,17 moore st,accrington,captured 21-3-18,died enteritis 18-8-18
mack ;D
-
Thanks Tim and Mack, I'll add all that in.
Mack, your German is improving ;D ;D ;D
Charlie
your right Charlie,i have been able to understand quite a few words without using the translator.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, I've added all of those apart from John Thomas I can't see him on PA 28358 and his index card only lists PA33920 which doesn't record his death.
Can you check the PA number please.
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack, I've added all of those apart from John Thomas I can't see him on PA 28358 and his index card only lists PA33920 which doesn't record his death.
Can you check the PA number please.
Charlie
sorry Charlie,its my error,it was PA33920
mack ;D
-
Are the Battalions known please for the following:
53846 Ernest Morgan
William Norris. His index card gives him as 18th Bn taken 21.07.1918, so obviously incorrect. His index card doesn't give a number, but having looked at the MiCs 84784 seems the most likely.
Thanks
Charlie
-
Are the Battalions known please for the following:
53846 Ernest Morgan
William Norris. His index card gives him as 18th Bn taken 21.07.1918, so obviously incorrect. His index card doesn't give a number, but having looked at the MiCs 84784 seems the most likely.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
morgan was 2/7th batt
William Norris,i cant find anyone that comes close,the place he came from,oakesdale,is a small town in Washington,USA,even today the population is less than 450.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
heres two rare ones.already in the database,a bit more info
pte 7764 George brookes,high lane,stockport,13th battlaion,captured 7-3-17 on the dorian front,POW in Bulgaria,in phillipolis camp,captured with pte 7858 Robert,allen coward,also 13th battalion.both repat 1-12-18 at dover
nobody knew anything about these two men,the records office said they had no records of any manchesters being prisoners from this front,they only found out about them when they sent a letter begging for boots and clothing,they are probably the only two captured in this theatre.
mack.
ps.curious how they ended up on a repat ship that seems to have sailed from france[R53233]
-
Thanks Mack,
There's a Washington in America as well, that does surprise me ;D
I reckon I've found William Norris, how they managed to connect him with the Manchesters is beyond me.
http://trees.ancestry.com/view/Military.aspx?tid=30744730&pid=12304655450&vid=1296a9c8-fd45-4055-9a63-c321ffe5eb6f
Charlie
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Thanks Mack,
There's a Washington in America as well, that does surprise me ;D
I reckon I've found William Norris, how they managed to connect him with the Manchesters is beyond me.
http://trees.ancestry.com/view/Military.aspx?tid=30744730&pid=12304655450&vid=1296a9c8-fd45-4055-9a63-c321ffe5eb6f
Charlie
that's him Charlie,oakesdale is in Whitman county.nice work
mack ;D
-
hiya Charlie.
heres two rare ones.already in the database,a bit more info
pte 7764 George brookes,high lane,stockport,13th battlaion,captured 7-3-17 on the dorian front,POW in Bulgaria,in phillipolis camp,captured with pte 7858 Robert,allen coward,also 13th battalion.both repat 1-12-18 at dover
nobody knew anything about these two men,the records office said they had no records of any manchesters being prisoners from this front,they only found out about them when they sent a letter begging for boots and clothing,they are probably the only two captured in this theatre.
mack.
ps.curious how they ended up on a repat ship that seems to have sailed from france[R53233]
Bulgaria was occupied by the French after it's surrender, the French organised the repatriation of the French and British PoWs, so presumably they all where shipped to France first. There's an interesting article re PoWs in Bulgaria here:
http://cantabulgarian.soc.srcf.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Rumen-Cholakov-Prisoners-of-War-in-Bulgaria-during-the-First-World-War.pdf
Page 62 refers to repatriatiion.
Charlie
PS thanks for the update on those two rare birds, they're the only two 13th Bn in the data base. Good work :)
-
202458 George bleasdale,died at valenciennes 22-7-1918,born 20-6-1876,he was a professional footballer,played for Liverpool,blackburn and darwen FC,he was the grandfather of alan bleasdale the writer[boys from the blackstuff].
theres a bit of info in PA37127.
google George bleasdale darwen fc,theres a battered photo of him
mack ;D
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42097 John Thomas Nutter is listed by the ICRC as 18th Bn, he was taken on 21.03.1918. Is his correct Bn known please.
Charlie
-
42097 John Thomas Nutter is listed by the ICRC as 18th Bn, he was taken on 21.03.1918. Is his correct Bn known please.
Charlie
your ok with the 18th batt Charlie,i don't remember coming across any 18th men being captured on that date before.
mack ;D
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more additions Charlie.
56.p.appleyard,woodside,gordon rd,claygate surrey[family home]he was a 3rd officer in the merchant navy when the war began and was awaiting another posting,but he enlisted instead,his next address after the war,was the cable ship "RAMOS" captured and wounded left side+arm 12-10-18 le cateau
60.h.armstrong.7 Charlton st,manchester
62.t.arnfield.shady oak view,glossop rd,marple,HQ,Acoy.16th batt
90.a.atkins.102 ellesmere st,salford
162.george Barnett.31 Gordon st,salford
105.2/Lt henry baggs,98 Heywood st,manchester
172.thomas,henry barry,10 lower seddon st salford
179.richard barton,MIC says r.m barton LFs
188,a.e bates,5 Cambrian terrace,cliff at hoo,kent,wounded by shrapnel arm,chest,leg and hand,C.coy,2/6th batt190 correct name Thomas,william batey,rose cottage,grassmere,cumberland
196.t baumber,8 brook st,digby Lincoln
211,middle name George
224 j.bell,no man with this number[300758]
227.r.bell,claybank house,station rd,kirkham
229,beller,nobody with this number
236.e,a Bennett,edwin,arnold Bennett,penwortham,westgate,urmston.
245.p.bennington,correct name Patrick hennigham
252.john William benson,25 Albany st,beswick,pow 30-7-16,repat 9-1-19
270 g.bimpson,48 bag lane Atherton
286.e.blainey,2 hathershaw rd,oldham,16th batt Manchester hill 21-3-18,B.coy
288.h.bland.correct name Alfred eland,20 miller terrace,silksworth,2/5th batt,captured 21-3-18,at munster II.repat hull 2-12-18
297 bodman,correct name boothman
366.g.brewis,green batt,alnwick,captured 21-3-18,repat dover 28-11-18
367.j.bridge,24 sefton st,crumpsall.
398.248012 Frederick,harry brooks
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, I'll get those entered.
Charlie
-
Bennington, Bodman and Bland were already in the database under their correct names, Bell was KSLI and Beller KRRC both deleted along with Barton.
Thanks Mack
Charlie
-
42097 John Thomas Nutter is listed by the ICRC as 18th Bn, he was taken on 21.03.1918. Is his correct Bn known please.
Charlie
your ok with the 18th batt Charlie,i don't remember coming across any 18th men being captured on that date before.
mack ;D
There are four in the database taken on the 21st or the 23rd March:
375578 John Butterworth
Lt Walter Evans
252825 Walter or Edwin Jennings
61266 Ernest Lanceley
The Battalion for all of them is then suspect due to the 18th's disbandment.
Is there a battalion for these two please:
8253 James H Nixon
53078 Henry Oakes
Charlie
-
Another Battalion please
23308 James O'Connor
Charlie
-
42097 John Thomas Nutter is listed by the ICRC as 18th Bn, he was taken on 21.03.1918. Is his correct Bn known please.
Charlie
your ok with the 18th batt Charlie,i don't remember coming across any 18th men being captured on that date before.
mack ;D
There are four in the database taken on the 21st or the 23rd March:
375578 John Butterworth
Lt Walter Evans
252825 Walter or Edwin Jennings
61266 Ernest Lanceley
The Battalion for all of them is then suspect due to the 18th's disbandment.
Is there a battalion for these two please:
8253 James H Nixon
53078 Henry Oakes
Charlie
hiya Charlie
butterworth
evans
Jennings.first name edwin
lanceley
are all listed as 18th battalion in the medal rolls,Lt evans was captured at Manchester hill while in command of one of the 90th TM batteries.
cpl 8253 james,henry Nixon[17th batt] was reported killed in action on 8th may 1918 with the 90th trench mortar battery
henry oakes 2nd battalion
23308 james o,connor[bomber]19 ridland lane,hyde
military medal
12th manchesters.D.coy
captured 9-11-17 wounded in the cheek by shrapnel
the camp address he sent to his family was dyrotz,post wusterland
mack ;D
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Is there a battalion for these two please:
8253 James H Nixon
53078 Henry Oakes
Charlie
[/quote]
Cpl James Henry Nixon was a member of the 17th Bttn Bugle Band. SDGW says he was killed in action on 8/5/1918. Soldiers Effects says the same. His mother Mary Ellen Newman received his Effects. They lived at 151 Tegnmouth Street Collyhurst in 1911.
A bit strange that his death is posted in action if he was a PoW.
Tim
-
Thanks both of you.
Charlie
-
Mack, Tim,
I've stuffed up with James Nixon sorry. The index card does not give a number for him and there are only three in the MiCs, 8253 looked to be the only possibility.
Here's the index card
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1956906/3/2/
Charlie
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Mack, Tim,
I've stuffed up with James Nixon sorry. The index card does not give a number for him and there are only three in the MiCs, 8253 looked to be the only possibility.
Here's the index card
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1956906/3/2/
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
there was no man with the surname Nixon captured with the manchesters during that period,the list is dated 6th march 1915,also in the list is james roy,captured armentierres with the manchesters,nobody with the surname roy was taken prisoner,another man,albert sefton,manchesters regt captured armentierres,he was in the LNL regt,the list is a bit iffy regarding regiments.
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack.
A couple more please if possible:
Is it possible to identify this Arthur Palmer http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1578932/3/2/
Stanley Park (please don't tell me he came from Blackpool ;D ) is also a puzzle, could he be 203421 Bentley Park? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1148305/3/2/
Last one, William Parker 12th Bn, taken Bapaume 25.03.1918. There are quite a few in the MiCs, any ideas which one he is please.
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack.
A couple more please if possible:
Is it possible to identify this Arthur Palmer http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1578932/3/2/
Stanley Park (please don't tell me he came from Blackpool ;D ) is also a puzzle, could he be 203421 Bentley Park? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1148305/3/2/
Last one, William Parker 12th Bn, taken Bapaume 25.03.1918. There are quite a few in the MiCs, any ideas which one he is please.
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
ive not had any luck with any of these,there was no man called Stanley park in the manchesters,the list that Arthur palmer is in,is stamped 31 may 1916,captured 8-5-15,he can only have been with the 1st or 2nd battalion,non of the other battalions were in france in may 1915,william parker 12th manchesters,there was only a pte 250675 Herbert William parker listed as 12th manchesters
I will check the rusholme AVL for Stanley park.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie.
I found stan park,his correct name was pte 39883 Stanley pask,75 Wilmslow rd,rusholme,17th battalion
mack ;D
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Well done Mack,
Herbert William and William Parker are one and the same person, both have the same DoB but different dates of capture 24 & 25 March 18.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
ime still clearing my database,i cant see these men in the red cross lists,they are probably there somewhere but I cant find them.
18429 james,farnaby,caleb oxendale
20th battalion
11 carr st,moorside
captured 23-7-16,at dulmen
248044 Robert,charles nunn
6 downs place,haverhill,suffolk
2/5th battalion
captured 21-3-18
12861 Thomas,henry priestley[known as tommy]
19th battalion.C.coy
8 upper conran st,harpurhey
captured 23-7-16
202293 james pickles
207 walkden rd,worsley
2/5th battalion
captured 21-3-18
Cpl 13675 Charles little.
144 Lovett st,cleethorpes
1/5th battalion
captured 21-3-18
repat dover 3-12-18
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack
Charles Little and James Oxendale are in the ICRC records somewhere, I found them both recently. There's no sign (yet) of Robert Nunn.
Charlie
-
276907 William taylor.30 Dickson st,edinburgh
2/7th battalion
died as a POW at jolimetz 10-9-18[grave lost]
hes not in the red cross lists.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
-
hiya Charlie,hope you don't mind me posting these,they are the last of those in my database,ime sure you will probably find most in the red cross archives or the database.
34651 Patrick,joseph toole
22nd batt
DOWs valenciennes 23-3-17
54301 Harold thornton
2/5th batt
DOWs[legs,hand and knee 27-4-18 war hospital valenciennes
lived scarborough
44629 fred sharples
12th batt
captured 24-3-18
5 park rd,darwen
at gustrow camp
54457 Edward pattenden
2/7th batt
cemetery lodge,st Helens
died at valenciennes 30-3-18
37706 Harold,winstanley pilling
22nd batt.D.coy
2 skelton st,wigan
DOWs valenciennes 20-3-17
351664 Thomas,henry robinson
9th batt
12 wood st hurst
died at valenciennes 23-9-18
252107 George royle
2/6th batt
205 eccleshall st,clayton
died 12-7-18
mack ;D
-
53689 joseph Arthur marland
2/5th batt
67 halshaw lane,kearsley
Cpl 20757 harry potts
22 batt.C.coy
10 booth st,farnworth
47407 Benjamin reeves
17th batt
216 egerton st,farnworth
277495 George ray
2/7th batt
spring cottage,belmont near Bolton
57285 albert syddall
2/6th batt
10 Byron st,bolton
53633 harry sands
2/5h batt
7 percy st,bolton
60163 Kenneth Watson
1/7th batt
66 rawson st,farnworth
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, no problem at all, the more the merrier.
Charlie
-
40877 edgar townsend
16th batt
A.coy
16 fretwell st,nottingham
wounded right arm+loin
9854 john reddy.
2nd batt
50 alexander place,rochdale rd,manchester
captured 20-10-14,shell shock
at hanover
repat 2-12-18
31328 john spence
18th batt
201 oldfield rd,salford
POW 30-7-18
repat 29-11-18
11688 Arthur thornley
19th batt.A.coy
7 silver st,whitefield
captured 23-7-18 wounded left foot[guillemont]
351896 walter shaw
23rd batt.Z.coy
30 south st,ashton
POW 22-10-17
Cpl 351490 frank thornley
17th batt
205 Huddersfield rd,millbrook near ashton
L/Cpl 36968 Herbert Walton
16th batt.D.coy
POW 21-3-18
119 wellington rd,ashton
350874 Edward,edwin white
2/9th batt.C.coy
9 Jermyn st,ashton
POW 22-3-18
44050 james whittaker
18th batt.A.coy
84 union rd,hurst
POW 14-12-17
L/Cpl 352162 harry,john woolley
9th batt
72 Cambridge st,ashton
DOWs 29-3-18 as a prisoner
drummer 351158 Harold whitehead
2/9th batt.B.coy
63 mount st,ashton
POW 22-3-18 wounded
at gustrow
52022 leonard smith
17th batt.A.coy
14 Edward st,cockbrook,ashton
POW 22-3-18
at limburg+giessen
47723 leonard saxon
17th batt.B.coy
bradgate inn,1 bollington st,ashton
POW 22-3-18 at savy,seriously wounded in right leg[amputated
at wittenberg
mack ;D
-
10734 john Alfred Wrigley
18th batt
27 Liverpool rd cadishead
POW 30-7-16
sent to dulmen,then to munster I.[5-12-16]
repat 7-12-18
10576 William Alfred webb
18th batt.C.coy
60 wimbourne st,miles platting
POW 30-7-16,wounded left side+back of the neck by shrapnel
at langensalza
repat dover 15-12-18
Cpl 8334 William whitehead
17th batt.C.coy
86 embden st,hulme
POW 21-3-18[att to 90th TMB]
at cassel
repat hull 23-12-18
42157 fred Wilkinson
17th batt.A.coy
75 north st,colne
captured 21-3-18[att to 90th TMB]
7649 james Wilson
16th batt
161 tipping st,ardwick
captured 10-7-16,bullet in cheek
at ohrdruf+langensalza
repat 21-12-18
sgt 12868 james,lancaster taylor
5 Richard birch st,bury
19th batt
captured 23-7-16 gassed
at soltau hanover
repat 27-12-18
mack ;D
-
17777 Harold Sydney topper
19th batt
21 Hampshire st,higher broughton
captured guillemont 23-7-16
at limburg
repat 7-12-18 suffering from heart trouble
29885 harry smith
16th batt.B.coy
10 mellor st,patricroft
captured 21-3-18.wounded both legs
repat dover 10-12-18
33059 Charles,edward shuttleworth
17th batt
3 ellesmere grove,eccles
captured spoil bank 27-4-18
31167 john Richard Williams
19th batt.
32 Stockton st,moss side
captured 23-7-16 guillemont
at dulmen
repat 15-12-18
Cpl 12447 james shoreman
17th batt.D.coy
15 Stanhope st,levenshulme
captured 22-3-18,wounded right arm+back[hospital germersheim]
repat king georges hospital,london 6-12-18
L/Cpl 3176 Christopher smallshaw
22nd batt
69 rosebury st,moss side
captured 14-3-17,grenade wounds left leg,thigh,shin and knee
at minden
repat 3-1-19
11719 William woodhead
19th batt.A.coy
114 Heywood st,bury
captured 23-7-16,wounded right shoulder
died of septic poisoning and pneumonia 21-8-16
buried minderheide POW cemetery near minden
Lt Alfred norman tongue
8th batt
da vinci house,ellesmere park,eccles
captured 21-3-18.wounded
at Karlsruhe
23347 Richard,pawson Jackson
2nd batt.D.coy
153 heaton st,denton
captured 26-8-16 wounded both knees[att to 8th LNL]
in hospital grafenwoehr
repat 31-12-18
L/sgt 8224 james Maguire[jim].DCM
1st batt
52 belper st gorton
captured 8-3-16,lost left eye rifle fire,stab wounds to body and arm inflicted by arabs while lying wounded
sent to military hospital baghdad
repat by river boat in POW exchange
sent home 19-11-16 to king georges hospital,london
google.sergeant jim maguires survival
mack ;D
-
all 12th battalion.captured 8-2-16
L/Cpl 2308 Daniel McKenna,38 strong st,lower broughton[A.coy]repat 23-12-18
9626 William meadowcroft
3810 harry,percival Rushton,highfield cottage,hazelhurst
mack ;D
-
351642 Arthur taylor,already in database,his address was 28 ivy cottages,denton
350439 William ollerenshaw,rosebank,gibraltar lane,denton,1/9th batt,
401445 james pickering,grange farm cottage,denton,18th batt
350230 james pye,2 raines place,dukinfield 1/9th batt[att to RE],at limburg
44981 Edward wilkes,6 cross st,willenhall,2/5th batt,captured 21-3-18
that's the lot Charlie,i threw over 300 in the bin because you had found them or they are easily found on the red cross site with better info in some cases,you will probably find more info on some of these men
mack ;D
-
Many thanks Mack, all your info has now been entered or updated.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie.
I have began going through the names beginning with W,i don't know if this helps or hinders you,i have dug out the PA and R reference numbers for you,to save you going through all the Ws,let me know if its helpful or not.
watler PA23728
Watson PA40211
j.watson PA24199,PA25751
Watson.PA6122,PA11785
Watson.PA6661
60163 Kenneth Watson,1/7th batt[B.coy]66 rawson st,farnworth,R52360[I think we already have him ???
watts.PA5709,R50482
weatherby.PA21943,R52168
weathers.PA40212
L.V withers.R51985.2/5th,this man and number don't exist Charlie,his R51985 ref is all there is
weaver,real name fred feaver.PA25099,i think you already found him ???
weavers hopwood,real name hopwood veevers,i think he may also have been found,PA21942.
sgt webb.PA939,i cant find any man called webb who was captured in 1914 from all ranks
webb.PA38120,R52148
webb.PA25905,R53441
webb.jobstell webb,real name job,steele webb.PA30699[41 roseberry st,moss side]
john webb.PA3520
john webb.PA8308
webb.PA30562,PA40745,R53386
webb.PA5896,PA6417,PA7098
webb.william webb.PA8672
ime up to webber Charlie,would you believe that these few men are the only manchesters I found in all those different surnames.
mack ;D
-
Mack,
Thanks for the offer of help, let me try it out before we go any further with it. I'll get back to you.
I can believe thats all you have found, I roughly worked it out that, ignoring the specific Manchesters sections, the hit rate is about 0.5%.
Do you have a Battalion for 49448 William Parton please.
Charlie
-
Mack,
Thanks for the offer of help, let me try it out before we go any further with it. I'll get back to you.
I can believe thats all you have found, I roughly worked it out that, ignoring the specific Manchesters sections, the hit rate is about 0.5%.
Do you have a Battalion for 49448 William Parton please.
Charlie
parton was in the 16th battalion Charlie,captured at the spoil bank.
mack ;D
-
Mack, have you anything on these please:
William Parken no number, 9th Bn, from Swindon. The only one I can find is RFA.
A Battalion for 54503 John Watler
A number for Job Steele Webb, I can't find him in the MiCs
Eugene Patient the ICRC have him as 63rd Regt, so if he's Manchesters 1st Bn. http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4520043/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Mack, have you anything on these please:
William Parken no number, 9th Bn, from Swindon. The only one I can find is RFA.
A Battalion for 54503 John Watler
A number for Job Steele Webb, I can't find him in the MiCs
Eugene Patient the ICRC have him as 63rd Regt, so if he's Manchesters 1st Bn. http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4520043/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
john watler,2/7th batt
job steele webb 8926
working on the other two
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
Two more please
71886 Charles Pawling, he doesn't seem to exist in the MiCs. http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3290421/3/2/
2039 Christopher Painter, a Bn for him is needed and I can't find him either. http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5107349/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie.
Eugene patient,this man doesn't exist,there were only about a dozen men who served with the manchesters called Eugene,non of them come close
William parken 9th batt,the closest I can find is 39738 William parkin,9th battalion
Christopher painter was RMLI
nothing on Charles pawling,theres another huge list for the lechfeld camp PA42601,i use a system for searching tough names,i check other men on the list to see if they appear on other camps lists,sometimes the man ime looking for appears in these lists and his name has been corrected,ive found a lot using this search pattern
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack,
I'll leave Pawling and Parkin in for the time being. I had a look on the Ashton Territorials site for Parken, the nearest on there is a Cpl A Parkin.
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack,
I'll leave Pawling and Parkin in for the time being. I had a look on the Ashton Territorials site for Parken, the nearest on there is a Cpl A Parkin.
Charlie
hiya Charlie
pawlings service number and the time of his capture are a bit dodgy,his number is a bit high for march 1918,these numbers usually appear near the end of the war,if you check the Manchester hill survivors lists,theres nobody with a service number in the 70000 series.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack,
I had another look through the MiCs and there is nothing even close to 71886 as a Manchester number and very few anywhere else. I'll keep hold of his details for the time being, something might turn up that makes sense of him.
Charlie
-
The latest update of the database is now on the main site. There are now over 3000 entries and the names beginning with P, R, S, T, W and Y still need to be entered!
Charlie
-
Can you have a look at this please, it looks like Arthur Pevia? 16th Bn.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3891596/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Can you have a look at this please, it looks like Arthur Pevia? 16th Bn.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3891596/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
hes 6790 Arthur peers
hes already in the database,he was one we had trouble with back in December
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack, its a good job you haven't a memory like a sieve like me ;D
Charlie
-
Is the Battalion for 44025 Arthur E Phillips known please.
Thanks
Charlie
-
Is the Battalion for 44025 Arthur E Phillips known please.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
he was 1/6th battalion,middle name Edward
mack ;D
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Thanks Mack
-
Which one is he please:
Edwin Potts 2/5th Bn, either 202203 or 20458. I'd guess 202203 but I have been known to be wrong in the past ;D
Thanks
Charlie
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Sorry Mack I've three weeks worth of help to ask for ;D
Battalions please for the following:
2772 Stephen Ryan
50439 Bertram Robinson
4/2805 Walter Rimmer
303366 John Ross
270133 Arthur Saville. ICRC have him as 16th and the CWGC as 2/6th
Lt. Col Henry Gordon Roberts. The ICRC have him as attached from the S Lancs was he a Bn CO?
Thanks
Charlie
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RH Rosing given by the ICRC as 16th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5261994/3/2/
Fred Rogers again given as 16th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1907157/3/2/
both taken at Monchy 31.05.1917, if they are Manchesters do you have their numbers please.
And a number please for Harry Roberts 12th Bn, there are too many in the MiCs for me to identify him.
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
57692 harry Roberts,12th manchesters
mack ;D
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The last lot ;D
I can't make head nor tail of these:
William Printiar coiuld he be 1356 Poynter?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2261202/3/2/
Frederick Rencell
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4414186/3/2/
WH Robinson
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/685442/3/2/
William Robinson
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4844464/3/2/
Charles Roper
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3798398/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
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RH Rosing given by the ICRC as 16th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5261994/3/2/
Fred Rogers again given as 16th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1907157/3/2/
both taken at Monchy 31.05.1917, if they are Manchesters do you have their numbers please.
And a number please for Harry Roberts 12th Bn, there are too many in the MiCs for me to identify him.
Charlie
hiya Charlie
rogers and rosen[Robert henry rising,were both Middlesex regt,still looking for Roberts
mack ;D
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The last lot ;D
I can't make head nor tail of these:
William Printiar coiuld he be 1356 Poynter?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2261202/3/2/
Frederick Rencell
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4414186/3/2/
WH Robinson
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/685442/3/2/
William Robinson
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4844464/3/2/
Charles Roper
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3798398/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
54922 Frederick,arthur rennell.4 godson st,islington.2/6th battalion
301068 William,henry robinson,102 taylor st,gorton,reported captured 27th march,repat 3-12-18,1/8th battalion
William piontiar,i cant find this man,1356 w.poynter was killed on 21st December 1914
William robinson.i can account for all those listed in MICs for 1914/1915,theres no matches,he was captured at armentierres,i think that's 1st manchesters
still searching for roper.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, thats a good start. I thought Rosen and Rogers were suspect.
Charlie
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There is an A G Harrison on the C.W.S. Roll and I'm trying to find if this is 9980 Arthur Harrison of II Platoon of 18th Bttn who is included in the PoW Schedule as captured at Guillemont 30/7/1916. I just checked the BWM /VM Roll and it says he also served in 11th Bttn.
Can anyone verify if this may be the C.W.S. chap and also explain a transfer to 11th Bttn if he had been captured.
Cheers
T
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John Ernest Whitworth 9943 is mentioned in the Schedule. He trained with II Pln of A Coy 18th Bttn. His Service Record shows he was Missing on 29/1/1916 and mentions some ineligible (to me) names of camps. Repatriated Hull 22/11/1918. Discharged Class Z 5/4/1919.
Resident Monton and Likely salesman at C.W.S. Drapers Dept.
-
John Ernest Whitworth 9943 is mentioned in the Schedule. He trained with II Pln of A Coy 18th Bttn. His Service Record shows he was Missing on 29/1/1916 and mentions some ineligible (to me) names of camps. Repatriated Hull 22/11/1918. Discharged Class Z 5/4/1919.
Resident Monton and Likely salesman at C.W.S. Drapers Dept.
9943 john,ernest whitworth
30 canal bank,monton
salesman
reported by the French as POW at Hameln
interned Holland 5-7-18
mack
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John Ernest Whitworth 9943 is mentioned in the Schedule. He trained with II Pln of A Coy 18th Bttn. His Service Record shows he was Missing on 29/1/1916 and mentions some ineligible (to me) names of camps. Repatriated Hull 22/11/1918. Discharged Class Z 5/4/1919.
Resident Monton and Likely salesman at C.W.S. Drapers Dept.
Tim
Any chance of you posting a scan of the camps where he was held? The ICRC records only list Hameln and Holland.
Charlie
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theres only Hameln mentioned Charlie
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
-
John Whitworth
Not sure where he was on 31/1/1916?
Tim
-
Thanks Tim,
The entry for 31.01.16 is Kriegsgefangenenlager - PoW camp.
Charlie
-
Thanks Charlie
-
Mack
Have you anything on Albert Sefton. If he is Manchesters presumably 1st Bn but I reckon he is Loyals. PA 1796.
Thanks
Charlie
-
Pete has uploaded the latest database update on to the main site.
Charlie
-
Mack
Have you anything on Albert Sefton. If he is Manchesters presumably 1st Bn but I reckon he is Loyals. PA 1796.
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
your correct,he was 8175 a.sefton,loyal north lancs
mack
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Thanks Mack. I have found the Schofields, just where you would expect them to be indexed - under "Sheffrey". ??? ;D
Charlie
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I don't know how you missed them,thats the first place I would have looked ;D ;D ;D ;D
mack ;D
p.s nice find Charlie,patience always pays
-
hiya Charlie
regarding the schofields,theres a 37763 joseph schofield amongst them,37763 isn't his service number,its his camp number,hes 43978 joseph schofield.
mack ;D
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hiya Charlie
regarding the schofields,theres a 37763 joseph schofield amongst them,37763 isn't his service number,its his camp number,hes 43978 joseph schofield.
mack ;D
Thanks Mack, I'll bear that in mind. I seem to remember I have fallen foul of that before!
Charlie
-
Mack,
Do you have the Battalion for 202473 Frank Shields please.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
frank shields was in the 2/5th battalion
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
-
Mack,
I'm back again :)
Albert Silley PA 24006. Can you throw any light on him? He is listed as 18th Bn, the only Albert Silley in the MiCs is T2SR/01733 ASC.
Andrew Symonds PA 7732. I think he is Gloucesters.
Thanks
Charlie
-
Mack can you have a look at Henry Sinclair please. I can't find anything in the MiCs remotely like.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2444582/3/2/
Charlie
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Mack,
I'm back again :)
Albert Silley PA 24006. Can you throw any light on him? He is listed as 18th Bn, the only Albert Silley in the MiCs is T2SR/01733 ASC.
Andrew Symonds PA 7732. I think he is Gloucesters.
Thanks
Charlie
your right Charlie,albert silley is the only one in the MIC but he wasn't a POW,i have searched through the absent voters lists for henry Sinclair at Dalton st,no luck,cant find him anywhere,symonds was gloucesters.
mack
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hiya Charlie
regarding albert silley,its just clicked after seeing his date of capture[18-5-16]he is pte 10452 albert,leo tilley,138 church st,newton heath,repat 9-12-16,he was actually taken on 13th may not the 18th,i did some research about the men from the 18th batt who were snatched by the germans in a raid on 13th may,10438 Edward prince was with him at the time.
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack,
I was pretty sure you would easily be able to identify Sinclair, in fact I would have put money on it, but that's why I don't do the Lottery ;D ;D
Do you have the Bns please for:
60438 Frederick Smethurst
43404 Henry Smith
Daniel Smith, have I got the right one with 9604? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1471583/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
here ya go Charlie
fred smethurst,2/7th batt
43404 henry,albert smith,WO/2.17th batt
9604 dan smith,dan died at Gallipoli,i did a piece about him on the forum about his last moments
mack ;D
I,me checking the d.smiths,be back soon
-
hiya Charlie
dan smith,i,me pretty certain hes pte 8861 Frederick,daniel smith,LNL,the man listed with him,albert sefton who is listed as a Manchester,was also in LNL,the germans are getting Lancashire mixed up with Manchester again
mack ;D
-
Ok, thanks Mack.
-
Hello Mack,
Have you any idea which James Smith this is please.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/600775/3/2/
Charlie
-
Hello Mack,
Have you any idea which James Smith this is please.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/600775/3/2/
Charlie
hiya Charlie
ime pretty sure hes Middlesex regt,there are other men listed with the same regt details,and they are all Londoners,i don't think any of the Manchester batts were in the area that these men were taken
mack.
smiley added
-
Thanks Mack, he was the only only J Smith I couldn't sort out. The rest are a bit of a mess - too many without numbers but other details tied them up.
Glad I got a ;D this time ;D ;D
Charlie
-
Mack
This is the last of the Smiths - thankfully.
A Bn please for 12566 Thomas Smith.
Which Tommy Smith is this please http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4186154/3/2/
A Bn please for 39756 William Smith
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
sgt 12566 Thomas smith.17th batt
pte 39756 William smith.2/6th batt
tommy smith,there were two Thomas smiths in 1st battalion,2130 t.smith was discharged in 1915,the other was 604 Thomas smith,his entry in the medal roll only says classZ army res 10-4-19
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack,
Typical! Is there a SWB entry for 2130? That might clear it up, he was wounded in the chest and side.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
2130 Thomas smith has no SWB entry,he was discharged on 7th august 1915,he later joined the KORL as 51803 t.smith
mack ;D
-
Hello Mack,
Thanks for that. Only an (hopefully) educated guess, I think 2130 was probably time expired in 1915. It would be pushing it a bit I think if he was wounded in May and repatriated by August 1915. He was only starting down the casevac chain in May, he hadn't even left Belgium.
The conditions for repat were probably at their most stringent at that time and if he was fit enough to rejoin in the KORL and also later to transfer again to the RE I don't think he would have fullfilled the criteria for repat. If he was that badly injured that he did qualify for repat and had to be discharged it just seems improbable that he was fit enough to rejoin a year or two later.
If I am correct that leaves just 604 as the most probable. What do you think?
Charlie
-
Mack
Have you anything on a Norman Ridley Stephenson 16th Bn? He does not show up in the MiCs with any Regiment neither does a NR Stevenson.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1091175/3/2/
Charlie
-
Mack,
Have you any idea who this may be? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/722844/3/2/
Did you manage to have a look for NR Stephenson?
Thanks
Charlie
-
Mack
Have you anything on a Norman Ridley Stephenson 16th Bn? He does not show up in the MiCs with any Regiment neither does a NR Stevenson.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1091175/3/2/
Charlie
hiya Charlie
norman was in the 16th Cheshire regt
mack[smiley]
-
Mack,
Have you any idea who this may be? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/722844/3/2/
Did you manage to have a look for NR Stephenson?
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
I checked the absent voters register for the address this soldier gave,9 union st,ardwick,theres no reference,he doesn't show up anywhere,but there was a William,casper sanderson living at 13 union st,he was a ships carpenter,could sanderson be his correct name,theres no Robert sanderson listed with the manchesters
mack[smiley]
-
Mack,
Have you any idea who this may be? http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/722844/3/2/
Did you manage to have a look for NR Stephenson?
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
I checked the absent voters register for the address this soldier gave,9 union st,ardwick,theres no reference,he doesn't show up anywhere,but there was a William,casper sanderson living at 13 union st,he was a ships carpenter,could sanderson be his correct name,theres no Robert sanderson listed with the manchesters
mack[smiley]
forget that Charlie,here he is
pte 45046 Robert,william struttman
9 union st,higher ardwick
self employed furrier
captured wancourt 23rd april 1917 sent to dulmen from lille 4-8-17
repat ripon 7-12-18
-
Many thanks Mack. Cheshires makes a change from the LFs :)
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
heres a bit of extra info on 1997 Bernard,james nobbs,he was buried in hadji kiri cemetery,he died in the camp at hadji kiri
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, added in.
Charlie
-
The latest database update is now available on the main site.
Charlie
-
A Bn please for 302875 Joseph Young.
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie.
joseph edgar young.2/6th batt
mack ;D
-
Cheers Mack
-
Mack
Can you confirm or otherwise that 42397 Hezekiah or Harry Talbot was Manchesters?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4371362/3/2/
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3121875/3/2/
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1109972/3/2/
His MiC is double dutch to me, it gives another number as well - 61897
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_cr1=WO+372&_hb=tna&_q=42397+talbot
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
he was in the 2/7th battalion,the other number 61897 is for the south staffs,i think it was issued near the end of the war,its likely he carried on serving,staffordshire was his birth place
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack
-
Mack,
Any ideas on these two:
Cpl Albert Taylor, 2nd Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4436933/3/2/
David Thomas, 21st Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/664330/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
6118 albert taylor
2nd manchesters[D.coy]
the battalions mobilisation storeman
captured 26-8-14,wounded in left knee+right collar bone[fractured]by rifle butt
sent to hospital cambrai,paul fleming haus Paderborn,priestner seminar Paderborn and then to kaiserhof Paderborn
sent to Switzerland 30th may 1916,his wife agnes visited him in 1917.he was interned at the hotel victoria
repatriated 8-8-17
resided 32 William st,ashton
born 3-7-1878
the main reason for his repatriation from Switzerland,was general paralysis,this is a term used to describe insanity caused by syphilis,cpl taylor was a respectable man,he was highly regarded by his CO who described him as honest,reliable+sober,theres nothing in his medical records about syphilis,apart from a dose of earache and a bout of debility in south Africa he was a healthy man,his future wife agnes,worked for his CO major james,she was described as a young lady of impeccable character.
the reason for mentioning this,is that it appears that his condition was down to previous immoral behaviour or his wifes,which would be completely untrue,it was the swiss who noted the term general paralysis on his repat sheet,i wonder if the term means something else in Switzerland
mack ;D
theres no david Thomas listed with the 21st manchesters
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, is his repat record in the red cross records or with his service record?
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
the red cross report is in his service record,ime sure I have a photo of albert in my archive
mack ;D
-
Mack,
It is possible that whoever translated his condition into English used the wrong context. In German one other possible use of the word "paralyse" is to describe ridgidity or stiffness. So "Allgemeine Paralyse" could be translated as either General paralysis or general stiffness/immobility. Considering his injuries the latter would make more sense.
Charlie
-
Charlie.
I found alberts photo and details in my database,his left leg was amputated,thats what they meant by general paralysis.
his parents received news that he had lost his leg the day after they heard that his brother percy had also had his left leg amputated while serving at Gallipoli with the 1/9th battalion.
mack ;D
-
Charlie.
I found alberts photo and details in my database,his left leg was amputated,thats what they meant by general paralysis.
his parents received news that he had lost his leg the day after they heard that his brother percy had also had his left leg amputated while serving at Gallipoli with the 1/9th battalion.
mack ;D
Just goes to show how easy it is to get the wrong meaning in a translation. It would have been much easier to have written that his leg had been amputated.
Charlie
-
The latest (small) update of the database is now available on the main site. Due to holidays and other personal commitments the next update will be at the end of July.
Charlie
-
Mack,
I picked this up on another forum.
Edmund Bagshaw 18th Bn, serial 106 in our database, the ICRC have him as 15145 a number that doesn't seem to exist. Should he be 61198?
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
61198 is the only one I can find as well
mack ;D
-
Thanks Mack, I'll amend his number. 15145 could well have been from his training days and he wasn't aware of the new one at the time of capture.
Charlie
-
you came up with the same thought I had,i was guessing he was renumbered shortly before or after disembarkation and he was unaware of the change.
mack ;D
-
Mack,
Can you help with these three please.
7049 Cpl RP Thompson 16th Bn - I cant find him in the MiCs or find a 7049 Thompson
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2215961/3/2/
Wilfred Thompson (no number) presumably 2/6th Bn - which Wilfred Thompson is he?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/963701/3/2/
William Taylor serial 3172 in our database, I can't find anyone near in the ICRC records. Do you have anything more on him?
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie.
no luck with William taylor,is there any info in the database about him
Wilfred Thompson,ime fairly sure he is 376677 Wilfred Thompson,2/6th batt,his number is a original late 10th battalion number[Oldham]he was born 1898 and lived in Oldham,there was only one other and he was a colour/sgt
7049 is cpl percy,thompson roe.
mack
ps me smiley thingy don't work
-
Thanks Mack,
Everything ties in with Wilfred Thompson.
There is only William Taylor's address in our database, it's an old entry from before 2009, he's the one without a number. I've been through all the Taylors and there isn't an address that matches. These are all the William Taylors in the ICRC database.
Are you using the quick reply option, the smilies don't work when using it.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
William taylor has been put in the database in error,he was killed in 1916
mack
-
Thanks Mack
-
Thanks so much for a link to the updated WW1 POW database. I've now found out where my grandfather was taken to - Dulmen then Wahn.
-
The latest update of the database has been available on the main site since 17th July. Thanks Pete.
Charlie
-
Mack,
Do you have the Battalion for 45408 Vincent Tinsley?
Charlie
-
Is anything further known regarding 2465 James Tupman? He has an old entry prior to 2009 in our database, all we have is his number, rank and name and 2nd Bn. He has no entry in the ICRC database.
Charlie
-
Any ideas please which John Turner this is. He is just listed by the ICRC as L/Cpl John Turner, 2/6th Bn. There is a 202531 John Turner 2/5th Bn listed as well. Could they be one and the same? The trouble is there are another possible ten John Turners in the MiCs.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/512445/3/2/
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
45408 Vincent tinsley was 2/5th battalion
202531 john,robert turner 2/5th batt,is the only one listed theres no john turner in 2/6th
2465 james tupman was killed in action on 26th august 1914,he must have been added by mistake
mack
-
Thanks Mack. Have you an idea who this Joseph Torner may be.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4258436/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack. Have you an idea who this Joseph Torner may be.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4258436/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
no problem Charlie,hes pte 202384 joseph turner,25 ash st,oswaldtwistle,2/5th batt
mack
-
Thanks Mack, I've got him now, he is indexed by the ICRC as Joseph Turnbull on another card.
Charlie
-
Which Harry Walker is this please,he is listed by the ICRC as 12th Bn.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2177363/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
theres only one listed in the medal rolls for the 12th batt but he wasn't a prisoner
mack
-
Thanks Mack, it looks like he was another mis-file.
Charlie
-
A number please for Herbert Whitehead 17th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4899241/3/2/
Charlie
-
There is contradictory information regarding two Fred Whiteheads - 51078 and 276771 - in the CWGC and ICRC records.
51078 is listed as having died on the 24.03.1918 by the CWGC and just as missing on the 21.03.1918 by the ICRC. There are no further entries for him in the ICRC database.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/851107/WHITEHEAD,%20FREDERICK
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4839754/3/2/
276771 is listed as having died on 21.03.1918 by the CWGC and having died on 24.03.1918 at a German Aid Post in Jeancourt by the ICRC. He is also listed as JW Whitehead by the ICRC.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2651033/3/2/
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/5248416/1872/29112/
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/236803/WHITEHEAD,%20F
51078 is in our database as being taken PoW on 21.03.1918, is there any evidence to support this?
It seems to me that on the basis of the ICRC records the CWGC has got in a muddle their dates of death.
Charlie
-
A number please for Herbert Whitehead 17th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4899241/3/2/
Charlie
hiya Charlie
his number was 52014
mack
-
hiya Charlie
I have 51078 fred whitehead down as dying of wounds on 24th march,you could always add that he may have been a POW.
mack
-
Thanks Mack,
I don't suppose you know what wounds 51078 Fred Whitehead had suffered.
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack,
I don't suppose you know what wounds 51078 Fred Whitehead had suffered.
Charlie
hiya Charlie
SDGW just says DOWs,thats all I could find,its 3 days after the hill was overrun,so its possible he was in german hands when he died
mack
-
Thanks Mack, it just seemed a bit of a coincidence that both had the same name and Regiment, both died of wounds, both would have to have been in German hands and their dates of death could have been the same. All this depending which on source was used. I'll leave him in, maybe something will turn up in the future.
Charlie
-
Mack,
Can you help with these please.
A battalion for 57331 Walter Whittingham and 50319 James A Whittle.
Who is John James Wiggon? 12th Bn, nothing turns up in the MiCs for a JJ Wiggon
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4253978/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
57331 w whittingham.16th battalion
50319 james Aloysius whittle.1/9th battalion
I cant find anyone close to john,james wiggon,there was a john,james wiggAn in the east lancs regt.
mack
-
Thanks Mack, I always feel a little bit better when you can't find someone as well ;D
Charlie
-
Mack
A Battalion please for 47271 Sgt Joseph Wilcox
Charlie
-
The latest database update is now available on the main site
-
Mack
A Battalion please for 47271 Sgt Joseph Wilcox
Charlie
he was in the 17th batt Charlie
mack
-
Thanks Mack.
-
Another one please Mack.
A Bn for 201990 Arthur Whiteside
Charlie
-
Another one please Mack.
A Bn for 201990 Arthur Whiteside
Charlie
hiya charlie
Arthur Bennett whiteside.2/5th batt
mack
-
Thanks Mack,
Can you help with these please.
A Battalion for 2/Lt Harold Williams.
66347 W Willet he is shown by the ICRC and CWGC as 53rd Bn. I can't find anything in the MICs for that number.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/555912/WILLETT,%20W
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3831472/3/2/
203857 Joe Williams 17th Bn, I can't find anything on him in the MiCs either.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5140161/3/2/
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
w.willet isn't listed in SDGW,list of soldiers effects or any medal rolls,and the 53rd manchesters didn't arrive in france until 4th march 1919,they were bound for Germany for occupation duty
2/Lt Harold Williams.22nd battalion,captured 6-10-17,repatriated 13-12-18
this is the correct number for joe Williams 203852
mack
-
I have found willett Charlie,have a look at this one for a mystery
47305 William willett,1/5th York+lancs regt,formerly 66347 w.willett 53rd manchesters.
landed in france 26-5-18,transferred to Y+L regt 28-5-18
killed in action 23rd September 1918.
according to the germans,they buried him 2 months before he landed in france,SDGW and soldiers effects registers both say KIA 23rd September and his service record says the same
47305 w.willett is also commemorated by the CWGC,his service record confirms that he was formerly 66347
who did the germans bury
mack
-
Mack
Thats a fantastic piece of work, I think it must be at the top of the mystery chart.
Charlie
-
Who did the Germans bury? A shot in the dark but I would suggest a relative or a close friend. The Germans must have found something with his details on it, an unsent letter or something similar perhaps.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
a bit of info on captain john,oliver McElroy[2191 in database]he lived at guilmore,gorteen,sligo,died at Grimsby on 4th march 1919 aged 36,buried in killaraght churchyard.
mack
-
Thanks Mack, I'll add it in.
Charlie
-
Some more please Mack.
25488 Norman Williams, I can't find him in the MiCs
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4311628/3/2/
A Bn for 252728 Isaac Williamson
302693 E Wylie, I cant find him in the MiCs
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5130105/3/2/
362234 Cpl Richard Wilson 18th Bn, his Number Rank and Battalion are questionable. Is he 302034 Pte Wilson?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/606940/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Some more please Mack.
25488 Norman Williams, I can't find him in the MiCs
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4311628/3/2/
A Bn for 252728 Isaac Williamson
302693 E Wylie, I cant find him in the MiCs
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5130105/3/2/
362234 Cpl Richard Wilson 18th Bn, his Number Rank and Battalion are questionable. Is he 302034 Pte Wilson?
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/606940/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
Isaac Williamson was 2/6th battalion
I cant find anything on norman Williams and e.wylie,i think your right about 362234 Richard Wilson,he is probably 302034
mack
-
Thanks Mack,
Do you have another Battalion for Richard Wilson or is he only listed as 18th?
Charlie
-
Thanks Mack,
Do you have another Battalion for Richard Wilson or is he only listed as 18th?
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
hes listed as 18th battalion attatched to MGC
mack
-
Thanks Mack,
I'll enter them in the database with a note against their names.
Charlie
-
Mack
Do you have anything more on 352901 Arthur Maurice Wilson, 3498 in our database? He does not show up in the ICRC records and all we have is - C Coy 16th Bn, taken 21.03.1918 and his home address.
Charlie
-
Can you help with Alfred Withing, 17th Bn
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1497203/3/2/
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie
theres nobody in any records on ancestry with that name
mack
-
Mack,
Sorry, I overlooked Arthur Maurice Wilsons index card, it just gives a negative response. It looks like he died of wounds on the 21.03.1918 and was not a PoW. His body was found at Grid Square (1:40000 map) 62D U30 B7.6 which is south of Villers Bretonneux. The CWGC have him as 9th Bn.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1439488/3/2/
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/253631/WILSON,%20A%20M
Charlie
-
Mack,
No 3513 in our database - 2408 R Wolstenholme, I think is 375663 Robert Wolstenholme. He is listed by the ICRC as 2/10th Bn attached 1/Kings Liverpool. 375663 is a 10th Bn number. Is that his long number and 2408 his short one ?
Thanks
Charlie
-
Mack,
No 3513 in our database - 2408 R Wolstenholme, I think is 375663 Robert Wolstenholme. He is listed by the ICRC as 2/10th Bn attached 1/Kings Liverpool. 375663 is a 10th Bn number. Is that his long number and 2408 his short one ?
Thanks
Charlie
hiya Charlie.
I don't know where the number 2408 came from,theres only his long number in the medal rolls[375663]2/10th battalion.
mack
-
Mack,
Which Robert Wright is this please
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2705479/3/2/
Could you also check the Battalion for 45013 Walter Wright, he is listed as 16th and 17th.
Charlie
-
Mack,
Which Robert Wright is this please
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/2705479/3/2/
Could you also check the Battalion for 45013 Walter Wright, he is listed as 16th and 17th.
Charlie
hiya Charlie
8946 Robert wright.17th battalion
45013 walter wright.17th battalion.
mack
-
The latest database update is now over on the main site. This will be the last regular update. As far as I can tell all the PoWs from the Western Front in the ICRC records are now listed in our database.
Perhaps in due course the ICRC will release their records for the Balkan theatre of operations.
Thanks to all who have contributed to the database over the last two years but especially to Mack who's help has been invaluable.
Please continue to post any updates to the information contained in the database or indeed names of PoWs who I might have missed.
Charlie
-
Mack, Timberman
Can you help with this please
4893 John Bradlurn? or Bradport? 1st Bn, taken Kut, died 30.11.1916. His number and date of death refers to Arthur Stubbs.
Charlie
-
Another three in Turkish hands
Is there anymore information on 2055 Robert Gerrard 1st Bn please?
A Bn and any info for 121 John H Lacy
A Bn and any other info for 2232 Cpl Thomas Maddocks
Thanks
Charlie
-
Charlie
Stubbs is the right one, he is the only 1st Bn to die on that date.
No John Bradport listed on the CWGC web site as dying with
the Manchester's
Neil
-
This is what I've found.
Name: Thomas Maddocks
Birth Place: Marbury, Whitchurch, Salop
Death Date: 16 May 1917
Death Place: Mesopotamia
Enlistment Place: Ashton-under-lyne, Lancs
Rank: L Corporal
Regiment: Manchester Regiment
Battalion: 1st Battalion
Regimental Number: 2232
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Asiatic Theatres
On his MIC it says died of wounds
Name: Robert Gerrard
Military Year: 1914-1920
Rank: Private
Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps: Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
Regimental Number: 42783
Previous Units: 1 Manch R 2055 Pte, 1 Manch R 2055
ame: John Lacy
Birth Place: St. John's, Plymouth
Residence: Salford, Lancs
Death Date: 16 Sep 1916
Death Place: Mesopotamia
Enlistment Place: Manchester
Rank: Private
Regiment: Manchester Regiment
Battalion: 1st Battalion
Regimental Number: 121
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Asiatic Theatres
Neil
-
Many thanks Timberman.
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
I have been on holiday sorry ime late with this
4893 john bradburn alias Arthur stubbs,wife leah stubbs,he was from Salford,died at aflon karahissar
121 john lacy was attatched to the 1st+bucks when he was captured,died at angora between 29th april 1916 and 17th January 1917
2232 Thomas maddocks died of disease at kastamouni
mack
-
Thanks Mack.
That explains the Stubbs/Bradburn issue.
Hope you had a good holiday.
Charlie
-
Hi Charlie, I came across another Manchester's POW (Walter Oxley) on the below website:
http://archives.wigan.gov.uk/view/157120
Regards
Pete
-
Many thanks Pete.
-
Hi Charlie, I came across another Manchester's POW (Walter Oxley) on the below website:
http://archives.wigan.gov.uk/view/157120
Regards
Pete
Walter Oxley was with the MGC at the time of his capture according to the ICRC records, although he is clearly wearing a Manchester's cap badge.
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1296313/3/2/
His Manchester's number (15916) suggests that he was a 1914-15 enlistment into one of the Kitchener service battalions.
-
The PoW database has been updated again with mainly additions and updates of those in Turkish and Bulgarian hands.
Charlie
-
walter oxleys service number is one that was issued to the 14th battalion,which became a training reserve battalion,his MGC number is a very early number,i doubt if he served more than a few weeks with the 14th battalion.
mack
-
Norman Kohnstamm was originally buried in MOISLAINS GERMAN HOSPITAL CEMETERY
Suspect he was wounded and captured serving with 17th Entrenching Company.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/288781/KOHNSTAMM,%20NORMAN%20MORTIMER%20JOSEPH (http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/288781/KOHNSTAMM,%20NORMAN%20MORTIMER%20JOSEPH)
Find this name phonetically! Also recorded as Ormistant
-
Tim,
I've had a good look through the ICRC records - including the ones for the German Army, just in case - and have not been able to find him. Not all the burials were notified to the RC.
Charlie
-
Tim
He was serving with the RFC when he was killed in action.
Name: Norman Mortimer Joseph Kohnstamm
Death Date: 22 Mar 1918
Rank: Captain
Regiment: Royal Flying Corps
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Comments: Manch Reg
MIC and SDGW both say he died 22nd
CWGC states he died 23rd
Timberman
-
Mack, Timberman
I have found two men with the same number serving with the 1st Bn at the same time, which seems a bit strange. Could they be one and the same? There are MiCs for both of them.
2244 Charles Evans a PoW taken at Sheikh Saed and 2244 James Barlow KiA 08.03.1916 commemorated on the Basra Memorial.
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/392992/3/2/
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1655322/BARLOW,%20GEORGE
Thanks
Charlie
-
hiya Charlie
they are different men,2244 Charles evans re-enlisted on 14th aug 1914 in 4th battalion,age 37,he was shot in the head on the day he was captured,he died of a cerebral tumour at grangethorpe military hospital,rusholme on 11-1-1923
pte 2244 George barlow was 19yrs old and lived at 34 watersheddings st,Oldham
also,there was this man
Cpl 2244 George,thomas bevan DCM,1st manchesters.
mack
ps its possible bevan was a regular and evans and barlow were reserve and special reserve men,simon may be able to help with this
-
Thanks Mack, it confused me a bit as I have never come across more than one person in a battalion with the same number.
I've started looking through the Gallipoli (which also contain the PoWs from Palestine, Egypt and Mesopotamia) ICRC files and have got down to the letter K. As well as more info on the known PoWs, so far three unknowns have turned up:-
9224 L/Cpl David Hughes, 1st Bn.
23433 Pte James Anthony Borking, 1st Bn.
881 Pte William Hyde, 1st Bn, who served as Dick Jones. +03.10.1916
Charlie
-
A Captain Palmer 10th Bn is recorded as died in hospital at Felahieb on a list dated 28.03.1916. I can't find any mention of a Captain Palmer with the 10th Bn, he is not mentioned in Amateur Soldiers. Nothing really comes near on the CWGC site. Any ideas please.
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2748127/708/6954/
Thanks
Charlie
-
Charlie
No help but this is what I've found.
The only Palmer that was a Captain in the Manchester's was
F C Palmer in the 7th Bn and he didn't die.
The following are all the Palmer's on the CWGC site.
PALMER, HERBERT Private 56022 15/02/1919 40 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Duk. N.C.. B. 2. 14. DUKINFIELD CEMETERY
PALMER, HAROLD Serjeant 8265 12/10/1916 38 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Pier and Face 13 A and 14 C. THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
PALMER, THOMAS Private 2455 07/08/1915 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Panel 159 to 171. HELLES MEMORIAL
PALMER, ALBERT BERTIE Corporal 301835 21/03/1918 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Panel 64 to 67. POZIERES MEMORIAL
PALMER, HERBERT Lance Corporal 2864 23/04/1917 35 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Bay 7. ARRAS MEMORIAL
PALMER, WALTER HARVEY Second Lieutenant 23/04/1917 19 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom Bay 7. ARRAS MEMORIAL
PALMER, R H Private 54210 20/10/1918 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom B. 1. BELLE VUE BRITISH CEMETERY, BRIASTRE
PALMER, R Private 47452 01/05/1917 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom P. I. E. 5B. ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN
PALMER, HENRY GEORGE Private 275434 08/09/1917 20 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom I. C. 27. ZUYDCOOTE MILITARY CEMETERY
PALMER, C Corporal 44458 04/10/1918 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom B. 3. BEAUREVOIR COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRITISH EXTENSION
PALMER, WILLIAM HENRY ELVERY Private 54454 24/03/1918 19 Manchester Regiment United Kingdom V. B. 16. LE CATEAU MILITARY CEMETERY
Neil
-
Thanks Neil, I think he will remain a mystery.
Charlie
-
Charlie,
My list of Officer POW's with the name of Palmer as a surname gives the following initials:-
A.E.P., A.W., C.B., C.W., E.A., E.B., F., G.H., Harold., Jack M., J.W.E., K.R., and N.StC.
PhilipG.
-
Charlie
It's possible that he was attached to the 10th
and gave his Battalion as the 10th when he
was captured.
Neil
-
Thank you Philip and Neil,
Could one of you double check that I have correctly understood that he died please.
Charlie
-
I don't think he did, these are all the Officers with the name Palmer
that died with the rank of Captain. Non tie in with the date of death.
Name Rank Service Number Date of Death Age Regiment / Service Service Country Grave /
Memorial Reference Cemetery / Memorial Name Docs.
PALMER, ROLAND GASKELL Captain 25/04/1915 38 South Wales Borderers United Kingdom Panel 80 to 84 or 219 and 220. HELLES MEMORIAL
PALMER, CHARLES Captain 15/01/1916 30 King's Shropshire Light Infantry United Kingdom In South-East part. TRAMORE (HOLY CROSS) CATHOLIC CHURCHYARD
PALMER, WILLIAM HENRY EYRE Captain 26/11/1915 41 Rifle Brigade United Kingdom HOLLYBROOK MEMORIAL, SOUTHAMPTON
PALMER, HUGH SALISBURY Captain 25/04/1918 30 Royal Army Medical Corps United Kingdom I. B 18. CROUY BRITISH CEMETERY, CROUY-SUR-SOMME
PALMER, D A Captain 25/03/1918 Tank Corps United Kingdom X. E. 12. DERNANCOURT COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION
PALMER, The Hon. ROBERT STAFFORD A. Captain 21/01/1916 27 Hampshire Regiment United Kingdom Panel 21 and 63. BASRA MEMORIAL
PALMER, ARTHUR PERCY Captain 27/09/1915 43 Welsh Guards United Kingdom Panel 10. LOOS MEMORIAL
KEPPEL-PALMER, STEWART LESLIE Captain 03/10/1918 24 Tank Corps United Kingdom III. A. 14. PROSPECT HILL CEMETERY, GOUY
Neil
-
Charlie
I've just read the top of the form,
it is a list of decede's (deceased)
soldiers.
He is the only one on the list that they did not
get in touch with the family.
I've rechecked the army list and only F C Palmer
held the rank of Captain, that I can find.
Neil
-
Thanks Neil, I think the only one he could possibly be is Capt Palmer Hampshire Regt. There isn't a date of death against Capt Palmer Manchester Regt but whoever he was, he must have died prior to the list being processed by the ICRC - 28.03.1916.
Charlie
-
Charlie,
I presume you are referring to Captain The Hon. Robert Stafford Arthur Palmer of the 6th attd. 4th Hants. who died of wounds in Turkish hands 21.1.16. PhilipG
-
Philip,
Yes, Capt the Hon. RSA Palmer. He would seem to be the only one commemorated or buried in the right place and having died at the right time. Perhaps he was, as Timberman has suggested, attached (unofficially or unrecorded) to the 10th Bn. We can only guess at what temporary arrangements were necessary.
Charlie
-
captain palmer wasn't attatched to the manchesters he was with the 4th hampshires,he was wounded in the shoulder and chest on 21st January at um el hannah and died 4hrs later in a Turkish hospital.
mack
-
The latest update of the database is now available over on the main site. The update contains the information from the recently released ICRC files regarding PoWs taken at Gallipoli, in Egypt, Palestine and Macedonia and that taken from the file of British servicemen interned in Switzerland.
Charlie
-
The latest update of the PoW database is now on the main site. There is some extra information, obtained from some mis-files in the ICRC database, on a few PoWs already listed. Also included, thanks to Philip, are the details of some Officers captured while on attachment.
Charlie
-
Another update of the PoW database is now available on the main site.
Charlie
-
Hi Charlie,
I'm interested in Spr Greenfield on this schedule and note Joseph Eaton on the list of the Manchesters. I can't find him on the master list. Please can you tell me what the schedule says at the top?
Cheers
Tim
-
Tim,
It reads:
"The under mentioned paybooks were received from an Echelon Inspectorate on 24.08.1918 without any further information. It is not known if the owners are dead."
Joseph Eaton is not listed in the database as he was serving with the Yorkshire Regt at the time of his death.
Charlie
-
Many thanks
-
hiya Charlie,there are no men listed with the name muchan in the RC archives,heres one for the database from my own archives
17991 Frederick,august muchan
17th battalion
B.coy
captured 23-4-17
repat 25-12-18
54 Bolton st,gorton
mack ;D
Hi guys. Come across your website whilst searching for the Manchester Regiment. Frederick Muchan is my Great Grandad, I had no idea until last night that he was a POW! I found his details on the excel spreadsheet that is on this site. Many thanks for all your help in digitizing it all.
-
Hi Muchan,
I agree The Forum has created a great POW resource.
Frederick originally enlisted in 20th Bttn (probably 12/1914)and arrived overseas after 31/12/1915. He was posted to 26th (Training Reserve) Bttn, which was Home based - possibly wounded or sick. As the 20th Bttn had gone to France in Nov 1915, it's also possible he was then transferred to 26th Bttn, although that would not be consistent with his medal roll showing overseas service with 20th Bttn. He then went to / returned to France where he was posted to 17th Bttn. Sorry if this is confusing.
Cheers and welcome.
Tim
-
My grandfather, William Davies was taken prisoner at st quentin 21 March 1918. He was in the 16th battalion. Regimental no 25225. He lost an eye in the battle, was hospitalised and then moved to langensalza pow camp on 20th may. From there he was moved to Chateau d'Oex in Switzerland on 30 Aug 1918. He originated from Leigh in Lancashire (145 Kirkhall Lane). I found this info from the Red Cross German records.
I have not found any data from the uk end. Destroyed I expect.
I hope this is the kind of information you are looking for.
Kind regards Gill Hamilton.
-
Hi Gill and Welcome ;D just the kind of info to increase the records, and make them remembered.
I'd love to see the photos if you are willing to share.
Kind regards
Wendi
-
Hello Gill,
Thanks for the information on your Grandfather, I will update our database.
You may like to note that he was registered by the Germans at Langensalza on 28.04.1918. The 20th May stamp on the record is only the Red Cross processing date, the date of his registration is on the very first page of the list.
The German records state that he was wounded in the right leg and chest, is this a mistake or were they in addition to the loss of his eye?
Charlie
-
William Davies received a Silver War Badge. The Roll shows he enlisted on 24/6/1916 and was discharged 26/2/1919, aged 22.
-
A further update of the Database is now on the mainsite. The updates/additions are mainly for members of the 1st Bn taken in Mespot.
Charlie
-
Thank you for all your hard work!
-
2/Lt Swift has the 1st names William Frederick - not just Frdk.
Name: W F Swift
Rank: Lieut.
Regiment: 17th Battalion. Manchester Regiment
Date Missing: 23 Apr 1917
Repatriation Date: 4 Jan 1919
Record Number: 3844
Section: Western Theatre of Operations.
-
Many thanks Tim.
Charlie
-
Exonerated Officer not yet in the database
2nd Lt Samuel Arnold Jackson (b Oldham 23/8/1888) Bank Clerk in Oldham 1911. Enlisted 1/1/1914. Pte 6763 in X Pln, 16th Bttn France 8/11/1915. GSW Knee & Thigh 1/7/1916. Depot 7/7/1916. Hosp Blackpool to 2/12/1916. 69th TR. Off Cadet, Bushey Hall 5/7/1917. Comm 4th Bttn 30/10/1917. Transferred from 19th Bttn to 17th Bttn on 6/2/1918. Exonerated Officers List. Troutbeck, Windermere in 1923.
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Tim,
Many thanks. Do you know where and when he was captured? Troutbeck, Windermere, I take it, is where he was living post war.
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
It's solely the mention that of the Exonerated Officer on the MIC that made me think Lt Jackson had been a POW. No other evidence and I assume you've already been through the ICRC "Jackson" list.
Troutbeck is the post-war address on the MIC. He married there too.
Cheers
Tim
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Hello Tim,
He‘s not in the ICRC database but turns up in the roll of British Officer PoWs. Taken 22.03.1918 while with the 17th Bn, repat 18.12.1918.
Charlie
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Well spotted Charlie,
The War Diary posted him Missing from 22/3/1918.
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Lt Harry Taylor MC is also on the 17th Bttn Missing List for 22/3/1918, but not on the Schedule.
Also
2nd Lt Charles Stanley Miles
2nd Lt Thomas Longworth
2nd Lt Frank Valentine Harrison (MC in 1920)
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Thanks again Tim,
2/Lts Miles, Longworth & Harrison are all in the roll, strange that quite a few Officers seem to be missing from the ICRC database. I can imagine I may have missed the odd one but four so far from the same Bn?
Lt Taylor isn‘t in the roll, so perhaps he turned up again.
I‘ll go through the Officers roll for the Manchesters in the near future, 128 Officers are on it. In the meantime let me know if you find anymore.
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
I wonder if they are recorded as posted to 90th Bgd or some other term?
Harry Taylor MC was assumed dead.
T
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Tim,
They could be anywhere then :)
Another 17th Bn Officer not in the ICRC database is Capt John Lambert Clayton, taken on 22.03.1918, repat 01.12.1918.
Charlie
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Im having difficulty posting 3 photos of William Davies (25225) Wendi Suggested I post the photos on the thread, however am getting Error message. Please advise.
Thank you
Gill Hamilton
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Gill,
Attachments must be less than 1Mb in total per post. If the photos exceed this amount either resize them or post them individually.
I would have thought they would be better in the 16th Bn section of the „photo and postcard“ board, they will get „buried“ and be hard to find in this thread.
http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?board=15.0
Charlie
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The database has been updated again. Thanks to Tim some 17th Bn Officers have been added. The repatriation dates for quite a few of the existing officer entries have also been added. With the help of a couple of members on the „Feldgrau Forum“ http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com I have been able to establish the locations of some of the German medical units.
Charlie
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The database has been updated again with a few corrections.
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L/Sgt or Sgt Arthur Allott died in a German Hospital 26/3/1918. See GWF thread, incl ICRC link. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/270027-serjeant-allott-a/?tab=comments#comment-2741937 (https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/270027-serjeant-allott-a/?tab=comments#comment-2741937)
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Thanks Tim, he is already in the database but with 1 „t“ and a number which I must have plucked out of thin air ;D
Charlie
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Thanks Charlie,
I should have spotted it still. The link to the ICRC card may add a little. Soldiers Effects also confirms he died in a St Quentin Hospital.
Cheers
Tim
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The database has been updated today. Only Lt Eller 1/8th Bn has been added.
Charlie
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An updated database is now available on the main site.
Charlie
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John William Austin's Number was 43276. The schedule says 43273.
See https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2912826/austin,-john-william/ (https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2912826/austin,-john-william/)
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Thanks Tim, I‘ve corrected it.
Charlie
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43154 James Brunton 17th Bttn
Enlisted Preston,24996 E Lancs R. POW 22, Cliffe St Nelson has died in a German hospital, on 20th October 1917, aged 22. Born Carlisle. He will have been att to 17th Bttn on 11th July 1916 and transferred 1/9/1916.
Wonderful photo here https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/571695 (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/571695)
Obit http://www.burnleyinthegreatwar.info/Bex%20articles/bexb/bruntonjames43154b081217.JPG (http://www.burnleyinthegreatwar.info/Bex%20articles/bexb/bruntonjames43154b081217.JPG)
CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/895215/brunton,-/ (https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/895215/brunton,-/)
Photo was a different chap in DLI
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I found the undermentioned „new PoWs“ as being repatriated on 16.12.1918 in a WO casualty list, the medal rolls confirm that they are Manchester Regt. As they are not recorded in the ICRC files is there anything more known about them please?
277665 John George Senior Barton, 2/7th Bn, Withington.
350736 William Parkes Chalmers, 1/9th Bn, Ashton u. L.
55794 James Gillbank, 2/6th Bn, Droylesden.
54717 James William Hague, 17th Bn, Glossop.
53885 Joseph Hammond, 2/7th Bn, Kingsland
48626 Ronald Handley, 12th Bn, Manchester.
401012 Charles Knowles, 12th Bn, Liverpool.
50846 James Miller, 2nd Bn, Dunston on Tyne.
350428 William Murphy, 1/9th Bn, Dukinfield.
252686 Frank Willis, 2/6th Bn, Manchester.
53457 L/Cpl Victor John Ollive, 2nd Bn, Thetford, is only recorded as missing as of 26.08.1918 in the ICRC files.
302159 A/Cpl Alfred Hough, 2/7th Bn, Warrington, is recorded as 2/4th E.Lancs in the ICRC files.
Charlie
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j,g,s barton 76 henry st,withington,captured 21-3-18,repat dover 1-12-18,he was gassed
j,w hague 47 duke st,glossop,captured st.quentin 22-3-18,repat 2-12-18
w.murphy 12 hill st,dukinfield,captured 21-3-18
I can only confirm what you already have on the rest chaz,theres no service records,victor,john ollive lived happily ever after,cant confirm if he was a POW or not,sorry mate
mack
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Thanks Mack, every bit helps.
Charlie
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Dear Charlie,
It was a thrill to find the names of the German camps where my grandad was held - unknown to our family before.
Thank you so much to all those who have worked on this marvellous resource!
However, his service number seems to have been transcribed incorrectly.
He was Duxbury, James 34216 18th Manchesters. I have his papers and the record of capture document. I attach the latter.
Many thanks
grandbaby18thPOW
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Dear Charlie,
It was a thrill to find the names of the German camps where my grandad was held - unknown to our family before.
Thank you so much to all those who have worked on this marvellous resource!
However, his service number seems to have been transcribed incorrectly.
He was Duxbury, James 34216 18th Manchesters. I have his papers and the record of capture document. I attach the latter.
Many thanks
grandbaby18thPOW
Hello and welcome to the forum.
Many thanks for the correction, it will show as 34216 in the next update.
Charlie
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Hi Gill,
In the "Hello" section there is a detailed explanation of how to post a picture, by harribobs. Hope this helps !
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Hi Charlie
This is all I can find on, nothing on his MIC to say he was a POW.
50846 James Miller, 2nd Bn, Dunston on Tyne.
The first pension card has his date of death wrong.
Name: James. Miller
Rank: Pte.
Record Type: Card
Death Date: Jun 1919
Service Number: 50846
Corps, Regiment or Unit: 2nd Manchester
Title: Pension Record Cards
Soldiers effects
Name: James Miller
Gender: Male
Death Date: 21 Feb 1919
Death Place: Hospl Mchster
Rank: Private
Regiment: Manchester Regiment
Regimental Number: 50846
Name: James Miller
Gender: Male
Rank: Pte
Record Type: Death
Military Service Region: Northern, England
Death Date: 21 Feb 1919
Service Number: 50846
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Manchester
Title: PRC Ledgers
Description: Pension Record Ledger
Reference Number: /D/17, 17117
Private MILLER, JAMES
Service Number 50846
Died 21/02/1919
Aged 21
2nd Bn.
Manchester Regiment
Son of Edward John and Jane Isabella Miller, of 20, Barry St., Dunston-on-Tyne.
Neil
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Thanks Neil, very helpful. I don‘t think I have ever seen a MiC for just the pair marked as PoW. That seemed to be reserved for the 1914 Star qualifiers who had been taken prisoner, if you remember there was talk about denying them the award.
Charlie
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Thanks for adding my Grandad 7451 Leonard Dawson to the POW database. Just a couple of amendments. He was in E Company; home address was 173 Sanderson St, Newton Heath (on his attestation form); he was born in Rochdale on 11/9/1896. Died in Perth W.A. on 5/5/1955. Incredible investigation work you guys have done compiling the database-congratulations!
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Thank you Gary and welcome to the forum.
The companies recorded in the database are those the soldier was serving with at the time of capture. E Company never went overseas as a company, the men would have been assigned to other companies for the battalions move to France.
Charlie
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Hi Gary,
173 Sanderson St was Leonard's father's address. He lived at 20 Ancoats Grove, North Ancoats after he was transferred to Reserve in May 1919. Leonard received a pension there for Dyspepsia (Indigestion) - 20% disablement.
I zoomed image is attached for your possible ID in XX Pln. He looks a bit too old to me?? I can take a closer pick if needed.
Have a look at the Battalion History of 16th & 17th Bttns (similar actions)
http://www.themanchesters.org/16th%20batt.htm (http://www.themanchesters.org/16th%20batt.htm)
http://www.themanchesters.org/17th%20batt.htm (http://www.themanchesters.org/17th%20batt.htm) - very good on Guillemont assault, where Leaonard was captured.
Welcome to the forum.
Tim
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Thanks Charlie-being ex infantry myself albeit the Australian Army we only had A-D companies overseas so I thought it was a bit odd. E Company I daresay would have been a training company in country prior to embarkation overseas?
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Tim-thanks for the reply and the relevant information. My mother (who would have been the only one alive at the time of my asking) tentatively identified Len in the photo but was not 100% sure. I was only 6 when he died in 1955! Will check out the other photos as I have a couple of him taken in the 1950's.
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hiya gary
your grandmother alice was previously married to pte 19118 robert cochrane,they lived at 7 franchise st,ardwick when he enlisted in the liverpool regt,they had three children,stanley,reginald,cyril and winifred,cyril died of pneumonia on 23-12-1916
robert was captured on 30-11-1917 and died of spanish flu in schneidemuhl hospital on 9-12-18,schneidemuhl was the last place your grandfather was interned
your grandfather was repatriated on 1-12-1918
married alice on 7th may 1919
emigrated to australia,arrived freemantle on the SS orama 13-12-1927
it was reported that your grandfather had been wounded in the shoulder when he was captured
his father frederick was a sales rep for the kay street spinning company.
your grandfather and his two sons leonard jnr and terence and his step son stanley all served in the australian army in WW2
leonard dawson snr,army number W18461
leonard jnr army number WX22940
terence army number WX23292
mack
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Tim-thanks for the reply and the relevant information. My mother (who would have been the only one alive at the time of my asking) tentatively identified Len in the photo but was not 100% sure. I was only 6 when he died in 1955! Will check out the other photos as I have a couple of him taken in the 1950's.
gary
your mum could be right,leonard looked older than he actually was,dont you have the photo we sent you back in 2008 of your grandfather taken in 1915
mack
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Mack-you are a font of knowledge! I knew most of the info in your prompt post except for a couple of snippets which are most appreciated. I did not receive the photo you mentioned of Grandad in 1915-any chance of resurrecting it and sending it on to me please?
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hiya gary
go in the photo and postcard section on the forum,then click on the 16th-24th battalion then click on the manchester evening news identified photo thread,his picture is in reply 27 http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7602.msg49541#msg49541 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7602.msg49541#msg49541)
i forgot to add stanleys service number,WX11933,served in 28th battalion in the middle east from 1941-1945
mack
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Terrific Mack-many thanks. Uncle Stan was a "Rat of Tobruk" with 2/28th Battalion AIF. Died 1986 aged 69.
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Hi Charlie,
I think the number of 17th Bttn John William Austin should be 43276 rather than 43273.
Cheers
Tim
ps The POW database is an excellent resource. I'm looking at late 1918 deaths for 17th Bttn and they're all covered up to now.
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Hi Charlie,
9488 William Welton served with 17th Bttn - not 12th The ICRC card is not clear. He died as POW on 20/10/1918. Here's what I have:-
WELTON WILLIAM 27 20/10/1918 Private Manchester Regiment 17th Bn. '9488' France JEUMONT COMMUNAL CEMETERY. Son of William & Mary Ann Welton. Engine Cleaner for Lancs & Yorks Railway in 1911. Husband of Elizabeth Emma Welton of 53 Victoria Road, Gorton with daughter, Gladys. Father of child to Miss Martha Jane Burke born 29/07/1916 of 40 Brick Street, Bradford. Fireman enlisted 17th Bn 26/02/1915. Trained XX Pln. France 08/11/1915. Captured C Coy 26/04/1918.
Tim
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Thanks for the corrections Tim. I‘m glad to hear the database is proving useful it makes the contributors efforts worth while.
Charlie
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Pte 27251 Henry Schofield
The Red Cross records indicate Henry served with 12th Bn and died in POW Hosp 30/07/1918.
All other records show Henry as 17th Bn and I wonder if we may find his grave at Conche (with an acute).
Here's what I have
SCHOFIELD HENRY 24 22/03/1918 Private Manchester Regiment 17th Bn. United Kingdom '27251' France POZIERES MEMORIAL. Son of George (Deceased) & Susannah Schofield of 405 Rochdale Road, Royton. Attested 11/12/1915. Mobilised 25th Bn 22/01/1916. France 22/07/1916 as 18th Bn. Posted from IBD to 19th Bn 30/07/1916. GSW Arm and face 22/06/1917. Rejoined Bn 29/08/1917. Posted sick again. Transferred to 17th Bn 06/02/1918. Missing XII Pln, C Coy, presumed dead.
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Pte 31214 William Taylor
Another case of a man assumed dead who actually died as a POW. If the date of death can be found we may be able to amend with CWGC.
TAYLOR WILLIAM 30 22/03/1918 Private Manchester Regiment 17th Bn. United Kingdom '31214' France POZIERES MEMORIAL. Husband of Clara Taylor (two children) of 13 East Rd, Longsight. (Later resident in France) Photographer attested 11/12/1915. Mobilised 26th Bn 29/02/1916. France 16/07/1916. Posted to 19th Bn from IBD 30/07/1916. Wounded 19/10/1916. Sick Jan 1918. Transfer to 17th Bn 06/02/1918. Missing XVI Pln D Coy, wounded right knee presumed dead. Died as POW.
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Hi Tim
Thanks once again, when I can access my desktop PC I‘ll do an update.
There are two Schofields whose records have been mixed up by the ICRC. Henry and Herbert have been, probably unknowingly, combined. Herbert 376558 12th Bn is buried at Condé
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/578129/H%20SCHOFIELD/
There isn‘t any „true“ record of Henry 27251 17th Bn in the ICRC records.
Taylor‘s death isn‘t recorded, as far as I can tell, by the ICRC.
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
Thanks for clarifying Schofield. Well spotted.
Taylor's service record says he should be @ 30 so the DOB is Nov 1887 rather than 1897. Then again NOK is noted as his sister rather than wife, Clara, so it may be confused with another man. What's strange is the ref to 13 East Street / Road, Longsight; so I think it must be the same man.
I'm not sure how CWGC work here. Should the last know date he was noted as alive become the date of death?
Notes as PA 25202 & 26333. (Are there more?) Index image attached.
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Tim
Thats all I could find as well, as you will have seen there is no mention of his death on either of them.
The CWGC doesn‘t seem to have a hard and fast rule, sometimes death is recorded as period between x and y, sometimes the first date of the period is used sometimes the last date.
Charlie
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I've asked Terry Denham too. Just wonder if the Cologne Memorial is more suitable for commemoration as Taylor apperently died in Germany rather than France.
Tim
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Tim
Where does your information that Taylor 31214 was a PoW (apart from our database, which now appears to be wrong) come from? His service record only records he was missing as of 22nd March and that the PoW was 27843 William C Taylor, A Coy, 17th Bn and not 31214.
As the names in the database have not been cross referenced with each other mistakes are going to crop up and that is the whole point of this thread :) , what you are coming across is very valuable information.
Charlie
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Tim
Where does your information that Taylor 31214 was a PoW (apart from our database, which now appears to be wrong) come from? His service record only records he was missing as of 22nd March and that the PoW was 27843 William C Taylor, A Coy, 17th Bn and not 31214.
As the names in the database have not been cross referenced with each other mistakes are going to crop up and that is the whole point of this thread :) , what you are coming across is very valuable information.
Charlie
After much brain ache and reading the (exceptionallly detailed) service record of William Charnley Taylor, I now understand your point. I've taken Terry off the case. Thanks Charlie
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Pte 9132 Albert Taylor was missing presumed dead ay Trones Wood on 9-11 July 1916. He has a POW record. Please can Charlie decipher this??
Tim
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Charlie can and will ;D
As you know its a list dated 08.08.1916 of English dead soldier’s Small/Paybooks sent from the ZNB.
It records : Taylor A, 19 Bn Manchester Regt, B Coy, No 9132. KiA, no further information available. Reported by an Intelligence Officer 2. (Small/Paybook)
Charlie
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Thanks Charlie,
I suppose they took the Pay Book from his remains prior to an unknown burial.
It's interesting to see 19th Bn when all the records state 17th Bn. I assume this is a transcription error.
Tim
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There is now the latest update to the database available on the main site.
Charlie
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2336 Norman Sladen died on 08/08/1921. See Non Com Section http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8796.msg58266#msg58266 (http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=8796.msg58266#msg58266)
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L/Cpl 9274 Walter Shooter
Walter Shooter enlisted 12/10/1903 serving with 2nd & 1st Bns. Mobilised from Reserve on 31/07/1915 (Possibly in India), he was posted to 1st Manchesters and attached to 1st Bn OBLI, disembarking Mesopotamia 25/08/1915. Captured at Kut-al-Amarah, Walter Died as PoW of Beri Beri at Aleppo in January 1917. The service record refers to a burial but he is commemorated on the Basra Memorial.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1774837&tid=&pid=&queryId=3748caadbff0e2c8de0c147d3f6022b0&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hMb7622&_phstart=successSource (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1219&h=1774837&tid=&pid=&queryId=3748caadbff0e2c8de0c147d3f6022b0&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hMb7622&_phstart=successSource)