17th Battalion Roll - A long term project

[Tim Bell]

Pte 9478 George Wilfred Reed MM

George served overseas with 17th (wounded Montauban), 2nd & 22nd Bttns and later transferred to Yorkshires.  His extensive service record is unclear.  The MM was in LG of 6/2/1918 and the card attributes the Award to 2nd Bttn.  It also looks like he may have been a policeman from Chorlton-cum-Hardy. 

Does anyone have any more details?

Tim

[mack]

George was originally a porter at the mosley hotel in Piccadilly and then became a glazier,he later worked in the lighting dept for Manchester corporation.


mack

[Tim Bell]

Thanks Mack

[Tim Bell]

I've been unable to identify overseas service of Pte 9460 W H Sutton on the XVII Pln Roll.
A William Henry Sutton enlisted in KORL 20663 on 30/8/1915.  He claimed to be 19yrs 11 months old.  I think he was born 1896, so appears to have mad a miss-statement of age.  I wonder if he'd enlisted in 17th Bttn, to be discharged when his true age of 17/18 was found out.  Then enlisting again - not stating his previous service.
William was killed on 18/4/1918 with 1/KORL - Loos Memorial. Son of Thomas and Margaret Mary Sutton of 7, James Street, Moss-Side, Manchester.  CWGC says he as 23 years old, which confuses my theory...

[Tim Bell]

Pte 8972 A Westall X Pln

I can no find no records for overseas service for this man.
Arthur Westall of 368 Stretford Road, transferred to the Inns of Court OTC as L/Cpl on 31/7/1915 No 5276 and trained with 6 & 5 Coys. He was commissioned 2/Lt in the Manchesters on 2/12/1915 and served with 8th Bttn before att to RAF in 1918 and promotion to Capt.  Philip tells the rest of the story here.
http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7726.msg54234#msg54234
Do members think this is the same man?  It seems he worked for Head Office of Lancs & Yorks Bank.

[Tim Bell]

17th Battalion Deserters

Of the 1914/15 Volunteers I've found few men who absconded.  This is the list I've compiled.  If members have further details on any of these men, it would be great.

No   Surname   1st   2nd      Rank 4/1915   Subs Unit   Subs Rank   Deserted Date   Pln 4/1915   
9471   Griffiths   A   E (S)   Pte           25th           Pte                   05/06/1915   XVIII   
8272   Preston   John   Charles   Pte           LC-219811Pte                   12/09/1917   XIII   Still deserted 20/4/1921
9342   Schaw   Soly         Pte           25th    Pte                   26/07/1915   XVIII   
9472   Scott   A         Pte           25th           Pte                   11/09/1915   XX   
9471   Griffiths   A   S      Absent   25th           Pte                   05/06/1915   Absent   
9472   Scott   A         Absent   25th           Pte                   11/09/1915   Absent   

[Tim Bell]

Heaton Park Roll
These are the men I've not identified.  Any help appreciated.

Number Surname 1st     2nd   Rank Subsequent     Platoon   Additional Information
8053   Ashley   George   Pte   Unknown   XIII   
9289   Bailey   Gordon      Pte   Unknown   XVI   
9477   Barrett   Harry      Pte Unknown[/s]   XX   
9367   Bennett   Harry      Pte   Unknown. XX   
8410   Bradford   L   J       Unknown   V   
9065   Bradley   Neil       CSM   Unknown   C Coy   Thanks Mack
9462   Bretherton   E      Pte   Unknown   XVII   
8430   Brown   H      Pte   Unknown   VII   
9205   Brown   J      Pte   Unknown   XVII   
8459   Brown   J      L/Cpl   Unknown   XIII   
8075   Burgess   J      L/Cpl   Unknown. Poss 2nd Bttn 27745 7 KORL   XI   
9507   Burns   James   Pte   Unknown   XX   
9321   Butler   A   E   Pte   Unknown   XVIII   CWS Derby Scheme Roll?
9322   Byrne   H      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9177   Cadman   E      Pte   Unknown   XVI   
9207   Caffery   D      Pte   unknown   XVII   
9324   Chester   W      Pte   Unknown   XIX Bugle   
8497   Cooke   A      Cpl   Unknown   XVIII   
8088   Cowen  /Cowan   J      Pte   Unknown   II   
9294   Davies   A      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
9295   Davies   M      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
8513   Dawson   John      Pte   Unknown   V   
9130   Delaney   W      Pte   Unknown   II   
8123   Dickenson   R      Pte   Unknown   VII   
9054   Dixon   H      L/Sgt   Unknown   III   
9113   Dodd   H      Pte   Unknown   XV   
8539   Eccles   W      L/Cpl   Unknown   XII   
8536   Evans   S      L/Cpl   Unknown   IV   
9454   Fishwick William      Pte   Unknown   XIX Thanks Mack
8565   Frith   Edward      Pte   Unknown   XV   Hollins Mill Co Ltd
10639   Furlong   F   P    Pte   Unknown   V   I, J & G Cooper?
8574   Garner   A      Pte   Unknown   V   
9152   Gee   J      Pte   Unknown   VI   
9506   Goulder   E      Sgt   Unknown   XV / XIX   
8168   Hall   P       Pte   Unknown   V   
8617   Hall   H   S   Pte   Unknown   V   
9202   Harvey   W      Pte   Unknown   XVII   
9474   Hewitt   A   B    Pte   Unknown   XX   
8634   Hipworth   R      Pte   Unknown   XII    
8600   Hopwood   H      Pte   Unknown   II   
9372   Howson   Percy       Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9405   Jibson   J      Pte   Unknown. May be Herbert Jibson KLR   XIX   
9281   Jones   G      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
9154   Kirton   A      Pte   Unknown   VIII   
8692   Knowles   Harry      Pte   I   
9416   Leech   G      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9334   Long   F   A   Pte   Unknown Poss Frederick A Long MFP - P/9737   XVII   
8710   Lowe   W   E    Pte   Unknown   VIII   Baxendale & Co
9483   Madden   T      Pte   Unknown   XX   
9029   Marsh   H      Pte   Unknown   II   
9021   McCann   Thomas      L/Sgt   Unknown   XI    Teacher with Manchester Education Committee
8754   McCarley   F      Pte   Unknown. Possibly Frank Commissione 8th KORL   XV / XVIII   
8757   McNally   W      Pte   Unknown   XIV   
9443   McNicholls   Laurence      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   Thanks Mack
9381   Newton   W      Pte   Unknown. Poss Walter Disch underage 25th. Later RAF. Born 1900.   XIX / XX   
9012   O'Donoghue   T      Pte   Unknown   XV   Calico Printers Assoc Ltd
8795   Parker   J   O    Pte   Unknown   VI   Brown Brothers
9379   Preece   J      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9476   Price   G      Pte   Unknown   XX   
9359   Purcell   J      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9458   Ratcliffe   T      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9304   Reddington   William      Pte   Unknown   XVIII Thanks Mack
8846   Redhead   D   A    L/Cpl   Unknown   XIV   
9183   Robertshaw   T   A   Pte   Unknown   XVI   
9354   Rowbottom   A      Pte   Unknown   XIX   
8322   See 8360 Adams   A   W       Unknown. 8360 A W Adams?   II   
9171   Shepherd   Arthur      Pte   Unknown   XVII   
9378   Squires   J   H   Pte   Unknown   XX   
8860   Stock   A      L/Cpl   Unknown   II   
9154   Stocks   William      Pte   Unknown   X   
9055   Strahan   W   B   Sgt   Unknown. Poss Wm Busby born 1868.   XV   
9244   Summersby   Alfred      Pte   Unknown   XVI   Thanks Mack
9460   Sutton   W   H   Pte   Unknown.  Possibly William Henry   XVII   
9343   Swain   G      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
9493   Taylor   P      Pte   Unknown   XX   
8911   Thomas   W      Pte   Unknown   IX   
9493   Thornton   J      Pte   Unknown   XX   
9056   Townley   R      Cook Sgt   Unknown. Possiibly 47538 RFC/RAF Robert Townley   XIV   
8342   Walker   W      Pte   Unknown   XIV   
8969   Watkins   S       Pte   Unknown  - 11th Roll   XII Bugler   Oak Tree Hosiery Co Ltd
8940   Watson   B      L/Cpl   Unknown   IV   
8927   Weldon   A      Pte   Unknown   I   
9285   West   G      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
9401   West   A   A   Pte   Unknown   XIX   
9489   White   F      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
9100   Whitehead   Mark      Pte   Unknown   VII    
8322   Wilkinson   W      Pte   Unknown   IV
8931   Williams   Donald       L/Cpl   Unknown   XI   
8353   Wilson   E      L/Sgt   Unknown   XV   
8964   Woodall   F      Pte   Unknown   VI   
9316   Wright   J      Pte   Unknown   XVIII   
8954   Wright   C   F    Pte   Unknown Prob 26174 Charles Frederick Wright   VIII   
?   Young   G       Sgt Ins   Unknown Attached   NCO   

PS I've totally messed up the crossing out!.  Where names have been found, these are bold....

[mack]

tim go onto the Manchester police section,2nd page,for 9244 sgt alf summersbys photo,he has a service record


mack

[mack]

tim
CSM n.bradley is neil Bradley,a soldier with a very fine career as a soldier,its said he never went sick during his service,he died of cardiac failure at his home 31 grange st,rusholme on 28th july 1949,there are extensive pension+service records for him

mack

[Tim Bell]

tim
CSM n.bradley is neil Bradley,a soldier with a very fine career as a soldier,its said he never went sick during his service,he died of cardiac failure at his home 31 grange st,rusholme on 28th july 1949,there are extensive pension+service records for him

mack

Excellent Mack,
Neil Bradley is a fine example of an experienced NCO bolstering the Pals training.
Thanks
Tim

[Tim Bell]

tim go onto the Manchester police section,2nd page,for 9244 sgt alf summersbys photo,he has a service record


mack

Another excellent spot of another experienced NCO, who didn't serve overseas with the Bttn.
Sadly I've found numerous other members of the Bttn who were transferred out and later became casualties.

[Tim Bell]

I'm trying to fill in the gaps of numbers on the Roll with names.  As 1st & 2nd Bttn shared 8000 & 9000 numbers with 17th Bttn, this is challenging.

I'm thinking that anyone who had enlisted in 1st/2nd Bttn would have a Star allocated as such - as they will have been serving in 1914.
 
This would mean that soldiers with just the BWM/VM, who then served in 1st or 2nd Bttn must have attested with 17th Bttn.

An example is 9125 Samuel Vernon.  His MIC and BWM/VM say 1st Bttn, but no Star.  9125 John Robert Knowles received the Star for overseas service from 17/8/1915 - att OBLI.

Samuel may have been a Reservist from 2nd Bttn, but surely he would then have received the Star?  Do members think it's safe to assume he was originally 17th Bttn and transferred to 1st Bttn?

To confuse matters we have 9107 where both J Hughes & J Goulden received Stars with 2nd Bttn.  As Hughes was 1914 Star, I think Goulden may have originally been 1st Bttn - transferred to 2nd.

[charlie]

Hi Tim,
Sorry, but I think you may be making too many assumptions. You are assuming that all 1st and 2nd Bn men with a number that could also be a 17th Bn number went overseas prior to 01.01.1916, is there any evidence for that? Did all the 17th Bn men serve overseas prior to 01.01.1916? No overseas service, no star. There are also the old series numbers in that range which were issued in 1903/04 to consider.

Charlie

[Tim Bell]

I agree Charlie.  We can identify individuals that are not 17th Bttn, but I can only treat the Non-Star men as 'Possibles'.
Thanks
Tim

[Tim Bell]

Lt J H Tomlinson 17th Bttn

This officer is on the Roll of Honour for the Manchester Education Committee as non-teaching staff.  I can find no other record of him.  Does anyone know who he was?
Thanks
Tim

Found him.  James Henry. He was attendance officer for MEC Deansgate. Boer War veteran.  He transferred to RAF in 1918. Ground duties only. Born 16/1/1873. Resident Pendleton.
Still don't know where he served before RAF though.