Author Topic: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters  (Read 11869 times)

Offline PhilipG

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2019, 07:47:39 AM »
Michael Pether,

Welcome.   What a worthwhile exercise you have undertaken.   I expect that one of the forum's administrators will advise the best way to bring your research relating to the Manchesters to the notice of the regiment.   PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2019, 01:08:44 PM »
I would suggest that the Manchester Regiment Archives would be the most suitable.
https://www.tameside.gov.uk/archives/manchesterregiment

Charlie

Offline Robert Bonner

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2019, 11:15:20 AM »
I have emailed Michael Pether confirming Charlie's advice  regarding the archives  I have also asked him to send me a copy of his draft as its possible that I may have some extra detail which he would find of interest.
Best wishes to all.
 
Robert

Offline mack

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2020, 09:59:18 PM »
I note that Sergeant Dooley's wife - Dorothy- died when HMS Giang Bee, in which vessel she was a passenger, was attacked and sunk by the Japanese on the 13th/14th February 1942.    PhilipG.
mrs dooleys 4 sisters,brother and mother all perished as well[the schooling family]

the wives and families of the following men,all arrived home safely on 4th april 1942 at liverpool on board the duchess of bedford

mrs jane le page,54 stamford rd,longsight
mrs mary robinson,11 northern st,hulme
mrs kathleen fellowes,17 caroline st,york

mack

Offline mack

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2020, 12:57:15 PM »
specialist qualifications of some of these men

sgt 3525760 arthur spencer,153 bradford st,farnworth,motor transport sgt
sgt 3511718 ernest meredith,124 thornton rd,chorlton on medlock,provost sgt
L/cpl 3523990 richard olsson,2 garden st,wigan,bandsman
L/sgt 3524069 arthur stanard openshaw,13 edmund st openshaw,signals sgt
sgt 3442837 albert,thomas robinson,11 northern st,hulme,sgt cook
cpl 3534741 arthur frederick bray,15 newton rd,altrincham,clerk orderly room
pte 3534710 ronald leonard daniels,54 hartley st,oldham,QMs clerk
col/sgt 724269 herbert frank fellowes 17 caroline st,york,orderly room sgt
L/cpl 3523133 stanley arthur hake,37 st peters rd,swinton,bandsman
L/cpl 3524258 norman farnell,93 pearson st,manchester,HQs company
L/cpl 3526054 sidney hepworth,142 lightbowne rd,manchester,HQs company,drove the group down to the docks

RAOC
sgt 7584492 victor,george,alex cole
A/sgt 7583235 percival,francis,joseph,wass walker
sgt 7591472 henry noyce
all armourers for the 1st manchesters
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 12:39:50 PM by mack »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2020, 01:48:33 PM »
Mack,

Some good detailed research you have produced there.   I have read the whole thread once again.   I was reminded of the mention of "Khali Floats".   I think it was a reference to "Carley Floats".  (The memory of us steaming past some 4 men on such a float off N.Ireland in 1944 is still with me today).   To continue.  The thread mentions the rank "sub-conductor Indian Army Ordnance Corps" - the rank title always amuses me for some reason.    There was a piece in the thread regarding the Leading Seaman who managed to get the only undamaged whaler launched.  The RN at its best.   Lastly, I had forgotten that the Japanese had stated that some of the enemy pilots attacking the ship were German.    I wonder if that was true.       
 PhilipG.

Offline rafboy

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Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline mack

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2020, 03:51:05 PM »
thanks cliff
the article supports my opinion about the manchester contingent,they were not the hand picked specialists that everyone assumes

RQMS edward le page and RSM albert sturch would be top of the list for evacuation because they were the highest ranking NCOs and ideal for forming a new battalion,sgt arthur spencer[transport sgt]provost sgt ernest meredith,sgt arthur openshaw[signals]and col/sgt herbert fellowes[orderly room sgt]would also have qualified as well as the two officers hesford[intelligence] and tommy quinn and probably sgt/cook.albert,thomas robinson.

why were lance corporals stanley hake and richard olsson both bandsmen picked instead of the band sgt,L/cpl norman farnell was in the HQs company with L/cpl sidney hepworth,personally i think hepworth was given a pass to leave because he drove them down to the docks

mack

at least half of these men were in the HQs company but i have no record of what the rest of them were qualified in
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 03:53:57 PM by mack »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2020, 04:09:41 PM »
Cliff,

Thank you.    PhilipG.

Offline rafboy

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2020, 04:31:34 PM »
Mack
I think you are correct, I remember reading somewhere several years back that the men were picked as the basis to enable a new Battalion to be formed.

Something is confusing me about the Taylor's who initially both survived I can find nothing on R. Taylor 34, he is not on the Roll of Honour site nor is there an R Taylor in any of the lists I have copies of or in the lists in Arthur Lanes book "One God". I am not sure what the 34 and 43 after the Taylor names refer to, there is a 3445333 L/Cpl James Taylor buried in Kanchanaburi Cemetery (I have a photo of his grave), however the Taylor with 34 after his name is the R Taylor, J Taylor has 43 after his, I cannot find a J or R Taylor with 43 at the start or end of his Service number. There are 9 Manchester Regiment Taylor's on the Roll of Honour. I guess I have now confused everybody. 

Of the four survivors Lt Hesford is known to have survived the war.
3529632 Cpl Harry Bostock is buried at Thanbyuzayat.
The two Taylor's are said to have died later on the Railway. 
I don't have grave photo's or POW Record Card's for any of them other than the one mentioned above.

Cliff
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline mack

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2020, 05:16:41 PM »
hiya cliff
34+43 are the last numbers of their service numbers

3527434 richard taylor,101 royds st,rochdale survived the war,Lt hesford visited him after the war,he was still suffering badly from his ordeal as a POW,he was in the camp at tamarkan along with the other taylor L/cpl 3527543 james taylor,67 church st,goldborne,james died of cholera on 27-12-1943 aged 29,buried kanchanaburi cemetery

mack
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 05:35:20 PM by mack »

Offline rafboy

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2020, 09:44:36 PM »
Thanks Mack
It was this post by Robert that set me off looking for a grave, "Hesford managed to avoid capture but the other three were captured and eventually  died as PoW."

I did think the numbers were associated with the Service Number, just could not find anything. I did see one reference to a Richard Taylor.

Cliff
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline mack

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2020, 07:41:28 PM »
cliff
ive since found out something that supports the theory that many of these men were not hand picked but just happened to be part of battalion HQs at the time
RSM albert sturch was a WOII,it appears that RSM 4605008 edward everett of kirkbrook st,oldham was the WO1 at the time,CSM 3521826 fred lewis of cleveland house,farcet peterborough was part of the motorised infantry,CSM 3524845 arthur,frank myerscough of 28 wade st,bradford manchester was a instructor attatched to federation of malay straits volunteer force[sgt dooley was also attatched to them]dooley died on the dragonfly
captain wlliam,irving oflynn weston super mare was the garrison adjutant
all these NCOs and captain oflynn should have been on the list for evacuation.
everett,lewis and myerscough along with the other CSM 3524539 william harrison of 10 carthage st,oldham,all died as prisoners

the only good thing about the day they embarked on the dragonfly that day,was the story of the two soldiers mahoney+cunliffe,who escorted the group down to the docks,they were not allowed to go aboard
L/cpl 3527792 john mahoney,27 bloom st,werneth+pte 3526013 john cunlffe,41 alice st,bradford,manchester were left on the dock as the dragonfly sailed,they were taken prisoner the following day,on 21st september 1944,both of them were on the hofuku maru being transported to japan,when she was attacked and sunk by american carrier borne aircraft,both men survived,john mahoney died in 2000 aged 83,john cunliffe died in 1972 aged 58

Offline rafboy

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #58 on: September 01, 2020, 10:09:09 PM »
Certainly looks that way Mack.
I have the grave photo and Record Card of CSM 3524845 Arthur ,Frank Myerscough, he is one of the men in the POW group photos identified by a relative. He is in Group 1 front row seated 13 from the left as you view.
I also have the grave photo of CSM 3524539 William Harrison and the Record Card of L/Cpl 3527792 John Mahoney.

Cliff
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline rafboy

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Re: HMS Dragonfly and the 1st Manchesters
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2020, 02:25:25 PM »
Mack,
This from: https://www.malayanvolunteersgroup.org.uk/uploads/1/0/7/3/107387685/passenger_list_hms_dragonfly_january_2019.pdf
supports your theory:
[Researcher Note: the official line and something repeated by many historians was that this was an effort to redeploy
‘skilled servicemen’. The actual composition of the resulting evacuees seems to have been as confused and disorganised as
much of the evacuation efforts by the authorities across the board. Closer analysis of exactly who comprised the
Manchester Regiment personnel on ‘HMS Dragonfly’ reveals that many seem to be lesser skilled Cooks, Orderly Room
clerks and Quartermaster’s clerks – perhaps men who happened to simply be at regimental HQ when the departure time
arrived, and took the place of men still occupied in frontline battle – they do not seem to be in the category of the skilled
technicians as in the case of the RAOC and REME.]

One very sad aspect of the sinking of HMS Dragonfly was, unknown to 3525852 Sgt James Dooley his wife of only a few days was killed on HMS Giang Bee
 See: http://muntokpeacemuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Giang-Bee-Researched-PASSENGER-LIST-Version-2.4.1-_-january-2017.pdf
• DOOLEY - Mrs. Dorothy Dooley (nee Schooling); “…Dooley Mrs. …” (NIRC); also “…Dooley Mrs. Manchester Regt…” (GBL); PD She had married earlier in February 1942 and was the Eurasian wife of Sgt James Dooley 1st Manchester Regiment – he was lost on HMS Dragonfly (MVG).
Cliff




« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 10:07:55 AM by rafboy »
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC