Author Topic: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland  (Read 3448 times)

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 06:32:27 PM »
Eleri,

I have always understood that "HE" in this context stands for "Home Establishment".   PhilipG.

Offline eleri

  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 06:58:46 PM »
I guess that means he came back to the UK shortly before leaving. ?
Eleri

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,225
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 07:14:58 PM »
I agree with Philip,  Soldiers were discharged in the UK.
 
He was appointed a Balloon Officer on 17.01.1918, his posting to 10 Balloon Company was confirmed on 07.11.1918. He was transferred to the unemployed list on 14.02.1919, this was recorded in the London Gazette of 07.03.1919 page 3152.

Charlie

Offline rafboy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 11:31:32 AM »
Good morning Eleri

I have turned your grandfathers photos round for you.

Have you seen this site? http://www.unithistories.com/units_index/default.asp?file=../officers/personsx.html
I can't see your grandfather listed but there is a link to email for help if he is not listed.
 
Cliff
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 11:59:47 AM by rafboy »
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 12:47:38 PM »
Cliff & Charlie,

I have been looking at the officer's photograph.  Firstly, the Observer badge he is wearing.  Would the Air Ministry in peacetime see fit to issue such a badge in these circumstances, do you think?    I would think it would be very likely to be his personal choice (and absolutely in order and appropriate) to wear such a brevet on account of his WW1 service.   Removed from his WW1 uniform, perhaps?

Secondly, on the lapels of his tunic, the metal badges lettered "VR" for the RAF Volunteer Reserve and the letter "A" for Auxiliary Air Force are absent.  I assume, therefore, that he was awarded a regular commission?    PhilipG.

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,225
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2017, 02:47:42 PM »
Philip,
There is nothing in the LG to suggest that he was RAuxAF or RAFVR.

Observer was an aircrew category till 1942 when the specific "Trades" of Navigator and Air Bomber became necessary. The B and N brevets were then introduced for these new categories. I would therefore suggest he was able to draw his brevet from the QMs Dept.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2017, 04:37:05 PM »
Charlie,

Thanks.  It was just the apparent size of the half-wing which seemed bigger than those issued in WW2.  Hence my thought that the officer might have done some unpicking!   PhilipG.

Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,225
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2017, 04:44:20 PM »
Philip,
I see what you are getting at now, it never occured to me that the pattern may have been slightly different.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2017, 11:53:40 AM »
Charlie,

Apologies.  Put it down to my advancing years.

I have re-read my contributions to this extremely interesting thread and find that "pure conjecture" on some of my posts features strongly.   As I find I was around at some of the time I write about, I tended to indulge in speculation based on personal experience, not necessarily applicable to the Junior Service.

Despite this, I now put forward more speculation and suggest that Mr Acland, newly commissioned, would have visited a military tailor (Gieves?), for fitting out with RAF uniform.   On such an occasion, he would have been asked about matters of rank and medal ribbons etc., when surely, the question of his WW1 brevet would have been raised and the badge subsequently fitted?

If Eleri reads this post, I apologise for yet more conjecture, but at this length of time it is difficult not to do so.   PhilipG.

Offline eleri

  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2017, 02:03:57 PM »
Thank you Cliff for turning the photos. I couldn't see how to do that.

The website looks great and I will search it later - I can also look for other relatives which I have come across.

If I understand the remaining conversation correctly then it is felt that this is a WW2 uniform with WW1 badges on it. ??
I'm sure that my Grandfather would not have been able to do this himself as being a traditional fellow he would not even know how to thread a needle even if he had one!!! Ask him one about gardening, growing veg, the glorious countryside around his home or his beloved car and you would have had more joy!! He was also a strong Christian and I am sure would not have done anything disrespectful to his uniform.
I prefer this morning's suggestion. :-)

Thanks for your help everyone

Offline rafboy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,136
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2017, 03:49:02 PM »
Eleri, the way I turned the photos was to save them then use an old version of Paint Shop Pro that I have to turn and save them then paste them back on the Forum deleting the sideways ones at the same time. You should be able to turn photos with any photo program.

Re the "O" Brevet:

From the information posted originally about your grandfather being a Balloon Officer in the RFC he would have been awarded the "O" Brevet then and would be entitled to carry on wearing it during his RAF service. If my memory serves me right I recall seeing it worn in the mid to late 50's.

I don't think there would have been any difference in the size of the Brevet for the RFC and RAF. It was a straight transition from the RFC to the RAF, one day men were officers in the RFC the next day they were officers in the RAF.

RFC:   http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks-Uniform/Badges2.htm#RFC
RAF:          http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks-Uniform/Badges3A.htm
 
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 04:42:52 PM by rafboy »
Cliff P Son of 3525679 Sgt Arthur Phillips 1st Bn Manchester Regiment and RAPC

Offline eleri

  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2017, 04:26:02 PM »
Having explored your kind links and "clicked" a little more (it's raining here) I have found and accessed the Wykehamist service record for the second world war.

During the second world war my Grandfather was P/O, R.A.F.V.R as a S/Ldr for HQ maintenance, Bomber and Fighter Command maintenance stations.

This would fall in with what was discussed that he was maybe too old to be in the RAF. He is down as having administrative and miscellaneous duties! It would also fall in with his great Joy of all things mechanical and his scrupulous care of his tools - garden and otherwise. He would clean all the mud off and wipe his tools with an oil cloth with great pride before putting them back in the shed.

Maybe it is true then that the photo was from the first world war - could that be? Or maybe he would not have had wings if he was in the reserves. ?

I also have his WW1 record which says that he was an interpreter with the Indian expeditionary forces which I believe (thanks to Wiki) joined the British Expeditionary forces and fought at Ypres (the 1914 Star maybe??)


Offline charlie

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,225
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2017, 07:05:56 PM »
Firstly my apologies as well, the London Gazette confirms his commisioning into the RAFVR, I didn't look far enough back.

All commissions and enlistments were  deemed to have been into the RAFVR from sometime in 1939, the exact date I have been unable to ascertain. This continued till after the war. All qualified aircrew, whether RAF, RAFVR or RAuxAF were entitled to wear wings whether employed as aircrew or not. The photo is most definitely WW2 vintage, for two reasons. Firstly the British War Medal, the ribbon of which he is wearing, was not authorised till July 1919, which is after the end of his WW1 service. Secondly the uniform he is wearing was only sanctioned by the Air Ministry Order of 15.09.1919, again after the end of his WW1 service. The wearing of VR collar badges was forbidden in 1943, which would make the photo after this date.

The 1st Bn Manchester Regt was part of the Jullunder Brigade, 3rd (Lahore) Division in 1914.

Charlie
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 07:08:03 PM by charlie »

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2017, 08:29:46 PM »
I noted during my recent re-read, that this officer was appointed Balloon Officer on the 17th January 1918, therefore, he must have initially joined the Royal Flying Corps, as the Royal Air Force was not formed until the 1st April 1918.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,441
Re: 2nd Lt. Edward Fox Dyke Acland
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2017, 08:36:59 PM »
Charlie,

This is the present position as I see it regarding this officer.  Would you care to check me, please?

Born 9th November 1891.  Commissioned in the 1st battalion Manchester Regt. on the 4th September 1914 serving with that battalion as an interpreter fluent in the French language, the battalion being part of the Indian Army  fighting on the Western Front.   Later he was posted to the General List and promoted to Lieutenant in the Intelligence Corps.   He qualified for the "Mons Star".    In due course, he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps, joining No.16 Balloon  Coy. serving as a Balloon Officer on probation, qualifying subsequently in March 1918 as a Balloon Officer.   This qualification, which had required him to complete 100 hours of balloon operations, enabled him to immediately and continuously to wear the Observer brevet badge throughout his service with the RFC and future service with the RAF.

On the 1st April 1918 the RFC became the Royal Air Force.  On the 7th November 1918 he was posted to No. 10 Balloon Coy. in the UK from which unit he was demobilised on the 14th February 1919.

Before the commencement of WW2, he joined the RAF, being commissioned as a Pilot Officer on the 16th May 1939, carrying out duties concerning Admin. and "Special Duties".  On the 9th September 1939 he was promoted to the rank of Flying Officer.  Presumably he was later raised to the rank of Flight Lieutenant and it is understood that he reached the rank of Squadron Leader, finally leaving the RAF on the 10th February 1954.

It seems likely that some of his RAF service in WW2 was carried out in Maintenance Command, a Command formed in 1938 and being responsible for all RAF equipment except bombs and explosives, operating through Maintenance Units domiciled throughout the UK.

I feel this officer's photograph may have been taken when he was a Squadron Leader, but the big question posed at the moment is "what operational requirement propelled him into the RAF before war was declared?".   PhilipG.