Author Topic: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill  (Read 2284 times)

Offline timberman

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #90 on: October 06, 2017, 08:03:38 PM »
Philip

http://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=5520.0

2nd photo, this was taken near the bottom of the hill, the 1st one
was taken about the same place looking up the hill,

I think it has been decided that the photo was listed correctly and
the hope it was taken from Manchester Hill was a long shot?

Just one more point, Charlie will be able to see this on his photo with the
soldiers if you zoom in at the bottom of the hill is a road  running left to right.
Could be the road running from Francilly to the D68 at Maison Rouge that is
no longer there.
See the zoomed photo. Click on it to make it bigger.
I personally believe that it was taken at the top of the hill just outside the wooded
area that exists today.

Timberman
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 08:50:03 PM by timberman »

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #91 on: October 06, 2017, 08:27:31 PM »
The way the land in foreground, in Tony's photo and the third photo in reply 86, falls away to the front and to the right is amazingly similar.
Charlie

Offline timberman

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #92 on: October 06, 2017, 10:45:31 PM »

The following photo was taken at the same time as Tony's
(Oct 2010) a little bit nearer the road than his.
Click on the photo to make it bigger.

Timberman

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2017, 07:43:01 AM »
Timberman,

Some splendid photographs.  Before replying to the queries, and in respect of Reply No. 90, what is the caption and date accompanying the photo displayed, please?  PhilipG.

Offline timberman

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2017, 08:12:27 AM »
Philip

It was taken 24/04/1917 and recorded 07/10/1923.
I've darkened it up so the cathedral stands out more.
See photo click on it to make it bigger.

Timberman

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2017, 08:43:03 AM »
Philip, Timberman,
Thanks for posting the photos, they are a much better resolution than those I found on the IWM site. The conformation of where the photo was taken from lies in the orientation of the Cathedral (which is actually a Basilica as it is not the seat of a Bishop).

In the close up of the Cathedral in reply 90 the pitched roofs and the gables of the two transepts are visible. As is normal with a Cathedral it was built on an east - west axis. As the gables are to the left in the photo this indicates it is viewed from the Northwest ie the St. Quentin - Amiens Rd. If it was viewed from the Southwest - Manchester Hill - the gables and roofs would be on the right hand side of the south face.

Charlie

Offline timberman

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2017, 09:25:42 AM »
Thanks Charlie

OK I'll fly the white flag maybe :) :) :)

The only concern I have is on my 1917 map there is no road
that is in the position and running in the direction as shown
in the zoom photo from the St. Quentin - Amiens Rd.
The only one is from Francilly to the D68 at Maison Rouge
that matches.  :-\

The photo is 9.84 mb so having to resize it down to fit on the forum
you lose a lot of detail.

Thanks to you and Philip for making this a very interesting topic, but I think
I've done for now :)

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2017, 10:31:34 AM »
Timberman,

Thank you for the caption dates.    In the words of General MacArthur as he left Corregidor in March 1942 - "I shall return".  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2017, 01:42:38 PM »
Timberman & Charlie,
I return (as MacArthur did).

In Reply No. 90, Timberman makes reference to a road running left to right.  I think this is not a road at all, but the "Canal de St. Quentin".  Opinions wanted.  I now turn to considering Timberman's excellent photograph in Reply No. 92.  But before doing so I turn to Reply No. 88 re Tony's photographs and, in particular, that annotated "Manchester Hill with quarry......".     The picture was taken while standing in the road D68, the trees on the left marking the position of the Manchester Hill Redoubt of the 16th Manchesters' fame.   In my day, a large wooden post supporting a motor car tyre was placed in the adjacent field indicating the location of one of the battalion's outposts.    Were the photographer to raise his left hand he would be pointing to the village of Maison Rouge.   By raising his right hand he would be pointing along the D68, where the road eventually finds its tortuous way to St. Quentin.   From his position on the road he could also see the St. Quentin cathedral in the distance.

Tony's next photograph has been taken with his back to the trees alongside the Redoubt.   The motorway bridge over the D68 can clearly be seen.

In Timberman's photo (Reply No. 92), the D68 can just be seen near the two bushes.

The photographs taken from the St. Quentin to Amiens road as it was in April 1917, also indicate the Hindenburg Line surrounding the city of St. Quentin, behind which the German Army had so recently retired, a place from which they would attack and ultimately appear approaching Maison Rouge ready to attack the 16th Manchesters and its redoubt along the D68 road.   This road can just be seen in Timberman's photograph (behind the turnips) and prompts me to raise, in the future, a question about the approach of a German artillery formation which took place along the D68 in 1918. PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #99 on: October 08, 2017, 02:47:46 PM »
Timberman,

I refer to your Reply No. 90 and to my reply No. 98.   I write to apologise for my over-confident assertion that I thought the road to which you refer was the Canal de St. Quentin.   I have not been able to reconcile the position of the Cathedral in the picture in any way that supports my opinion.  I again apologise.   Take care. PhilipG.

Offline timberman

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2017, 08:47:18 PM »
Philip

Thank you
With the help of you and Charlie I have been able to alter the position of the guns
in my records, also all the other information that's been provided.
With regards to the photo it would of been a great find if it had been of the 2nd Bn
and taken at Manchester Hill.
With Charlies analyzing of the photo's I think we have to accept that the photo was taken
at some point along the  St. Quentin to Amiens road the attached photo just gives an example of the
devastation that was the St. Quentin to Amiens road and the surrounding area.
I have look on street view on Google earth from every angle possible with no joy.

Timberman

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #101 on: October 10, 2017, 06:42:55 PM »
Philip,
This German Newsreel from March 1918 may be of interest. Most of it is in the area near St Quentin, - Holnon wood, Attily, Roisel, St. Q - Ham road. Perhaps you or Timberman can identify more.
https://www.filmothek.bundesarchiv.de/video/51076?q=St.+Quentin

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2017, 03:32:24 PM »
Charlie,

Fascinating stuff.  I have watched the video several times and alas, I have not been able to pick out anything I recognise, even though I have been in some of the areas mentioned.    It makes one realise the huge amounts of material the British must have suffered in the March 1918 retreat.   Some comment.

The looting of the British camp.  Historians tell us that the delay caused by German troops looting held back the speed of their advance.   Even some poor sheep was roped in by one soldier.

The British POW's seemed happy.  One man was even waving to the camera.

The video made me realise the great suffering of the artillery's horses.

In conclusion, thank you for bringing the film to our notice.   

PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2017, 06:38:18 AM »
Charlie,

I think I missed out "the loss of" in the second sentence.   Sorry, I blame it on  inattention consequent upon a hospital visit yesterday.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Manchesters at Manchester Hill
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2017, 11:41:01 AM »
On the 21st March 1917, Major Lumsden (later Brig-General) who was the GSO2 of the 32nd Division, accompanied a mounted patrol ordered by the CRA of that division, with instructions to obtain contact with the enemy in the area of St. Quentin.   Their orders were to bring in a prisoner "live or dead" for unit identification purposes.    Passing Savy Station they were able to surprise a German outpost held by two men.   Galloping forward, the party captured one of these men who was only slightly wounded.

The POW was Feldwebel Hermann Schmidt of the 115 Hesse Infantry Reserve.    Later that day he was taken to Nesle (32nd Div. HQ) for interrogation.   PhilipG.