Author Topic: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.  (Read 2102 times)

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2019, 10:03:54 PM »
During the action at Urvillers, the Royal Flying Corps was very active attacking the 2nd Bavarian Regiment.   This unit made use of some British dug-outs in a sunken road and adopted them as their temporary headquarters.   However, this had been spotted by aircraft from No. 82 Squadron which then made low flying attacks with machine guns and bombs on the position.  The HQ staff was decimated.    PhilipG.

Philip,
The history of the 2nd Bavarian Regt records that low flying aircraft dropped „Kettenbomben“ literally „chained bombs“, causing considerable casualties. Can you throw any light on how these bombs were constructed? I think the history also exaggerates somewhat stating the Regtl HQ was decimated, the Adjutant was wounded and the Intelligence Officer killed outright.

Schushila
The number of prisoners taken by the 1st Bavarian Regt is recorded in the history as several hundred. While I agree that they record respect for the fighting qualities of the British there is a sense of disgust at the actions of the PoWs who fired at them from the rear.

In your search for information you could also try ZMSBw in Potsdam, they have, among other things, an extensive library of around 250000 books which is searchable online https://portal.kobv.de/?ref=logo&plv=2

Charlie


Offline Schushila

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2019, 10:22:58 PM »
Hi Charlie,

Yes, it said "einige hundert" - serveral hundred, you are right. Multi-tasking two translations at the same time, is not a good idea! As for the other part, I agree they were not happy about their particularly well loved comrades being killed but I got the feeling that they were annoyed with themselves for not having got them escorted and there was a begrudging respect that they took the opportunity that their failings allowed. Maybe it is how one reads it. I am happy to bow to your better historical knowledge as I am a total novice here.

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2019, 05:40:28 AM »
Sorry, I forgot the link to ZMSBw http://www.zmsbw.de/html/zms_bib.php

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2019, 12:06:36 PM »
Charlie,

Kettenbomben

I suggest that this is a description of the style of bombing, insofar as the vertically stacked bombs in the aircraft's carrier were released in a manner of very short and regular intervals so as to give the impression to the bystander when they arrived on the ground that they were dropped in a chain -  cf. jettisoning of a bomb load where the forward motion of the aircraft would have the same effect.    Just a thought, but I am no Air Bomber. PhilipG.

Offline Schushila

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2019, 12:16:18 PM »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »
Charlie,

I quote from the Official History of the War ( 1934) -  German Evidence:  2nd Bavarian Regiment.

The British airmen " in the most daring manner flew very low over the ground and threw bombs causing us considerable losses.   At about 3 pm the regimental staff arrived at a sunken road where dug-outs were available for a command post.   The signal officer, Lieutenant Weisz had just signalled back to Brigade, and the Regimental Adjutant was issuing orders to the subordinate members of the staff who had tentatively taken shelter in the sunken road, when a deafening explosion robbed us for some moments of consciousness.  A hostile airman had spotted the concentration and caused his blessing in bombs to rain upon us.    The signal officer, the excellent Weisz was killed instantaneously.   The regimental staff was decimated.  The adjutant, Lieutenant Hans Zorn was so badly wounded that he had to be relieved."

A claim by the British pilot attacking reported dropping three bombs.     200 machine-gun rounds were also fired.    PhilipG.


Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2019, 03:52:57 PM »
Philip, Schushila,
Thank you for your comments and the link. The interesting thread on the GWF doesn‘t really give a definitive answer as to whether it was a type of bomb or a method of releasing bombs from an aircraft. Another mystery.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2019, 11:58:27 AM »
Charlie,

Thank you.  In December 1940 our village was bombed causing casualties and damage.  At the time, the ARP Warden advised that "a string of land mines had been dropped near the telephone exchange."    In that respect I can see the connection with the words chain and string.   PhilipG.

Online mack

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2019, 08:28:16 PM »
he may have only been with the germans for a very short time and sent to Holland or Switzerland and never got registered at any of their camps,it doesn't say where he was repatriated from,only the date.

mack

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2019, 11:31:36 AM »
Looking at the date of repatriation in respect of Lt.Butler, I see that another officer, also of the 8th KRRC was similarly repatriated on the 14th December 1918, having been reported missing on the 21st March 1918.  He was Captain F.G.Scott.  Perhaps it is worth looking into his POW career, too?     Battalions of the KRRC which took part in the St Quentin battle were the 7th, 8th & 9th battalions.   At the end of the battle they were each reduced to a cadre, as a total of around 40 officers of these battalions were reported as missing.

Continuing the research.   I see in an authoritative book published in 1978 that Lt.Col. R.H.Brown, the CO of the 8th KRRC was taken prisoner on the 21st March 1918. In another equally authoritative list, this name is missing, but I think the CO's name could be Major R.L.Bowen?   It seems that Battalion HQ was located in a series of dug-outs.   It was from this position that advancing German forces, including tanks, stretched "as far as the eye could see."    When the enemy appeared quite near, "the Colonel tied a white rag or towel to a stick and waved it.  There was much saluting and conversation."

Schushila,  No doubt you will be aware that in 1918 the Manchesters were involved in this battle and that Wilfred Owen (2nd Mcrs.) was in the fighting around St.Q. in 1917.  Lastly, I take it your interest in Lt.Butler is a family one?   PhilipG.