Author Topic: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.  (Read 2103 times)

Offline PhilipG

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2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« on: May 05, 2017, 07:32:22 AM »
The records indicate that this officer was attached to the 8th Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps and was made a POW on the 21st March 1918 whilst in action with that battalion during the severe fighting at Urvillers (south of St. Quentin).    Particularly interesting is that the German accounts of the fighting mention especially the prolonged resistance by the battalion in the defence of that village.    Lt. Butler was repatriated on the 14th December 1918.

Any info. would be appreciated. PhilipG.

Online mack

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 09:42:19 PM »
2/Lt leonard Charles butler

his rank when the war ended was lieutenant
he was awarded a SWB No506778
went to france 24-9-1917
died 8th june 1921 aged 24,buried 11th june in st martins churchyard,east horsley,surrey by the rev walker
address lincombe,east horsley

mack

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 07:04:17 AM »
Mack,

Many thanks.   I wonder, if during your research you came across the Manchester Regiment battalion in which he served?  PhilipG.

Offline sphinx

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 10:57:07 AM »
He was in the 3rd (Reserve) Bn.

regards

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 11:43:33 AM »
Sphinx,

Many thanks.   PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 07:35:30 PM »
He was promoted Lt on 01.07.1918 and placed on the retired list due to ill health caused by active service on 03.12.1919.

At the time of his capture he was serving with A Coy 8/KRRC. According to the WD the Company became surrounded.

I have been unable to find any records for him in the ICRC files apart from two index cards which do not have links to any further existing information on them.

I wonder if his premature death was caused by the heath problems he contracted on active service? A case of non-commemoration by the CWGC?

Charlie
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 07:40:22 PM by charlie »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2017, 07:22:53 AM »
Charlie,

Thank you.  You raise an interesting question re commemoration.   PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 10:23:01 AM »
The 8th KRRC was part of the 41st Brigade of the 14th (Light) Division.  The other three battalions belonged to the Rifle Brigade or KRRC.  The 42nd Brigade was composed of two battalions of Light Infantry together with the 9th KRRC and the 9th Rifle Brigade.   The 43rd Brigade was made up entirely of four battalions of the Light Infantry.

In the case of Lt. Butler being attached to a Rifle Regiment from a line regiment, I wonder whether or not he would find a large difference in military matters /procedures compared with his previous service with the Manchesters?

In August 1918 the components of the 14th Div. received radical change.   In the case of the 42nd Brigade, the 16th Manchesters were serving with the 6th(Wilts.Yeo.)Wiltshires, together with the 14th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

The other brigades were a mixture of Light Infantry and line regiments.   I understand that Light Infantrymen marched at 140 paces to the minute as opposed to 120 paces to the minute.   I wonder, when on the move, some compromise was necessary?   PhilipG.

Offline artyhughes

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 02:53:33 PM »
The 8th KRRC was part of the 41st Brigade of the 14th (Light) Division.  The other three battalions belonged to the Rifle Brigade or KRRC.  The 42nd Brigade was composed of two battalions of Light Infantry together with the 9th KRRC and the 9th Rifle Brigade.   The 43rd Brigade was made up entirely of four battalions of the Light Infantry.

In the case of Lt. Butler being attached to a Rifle Regiment from a line regiment, I wonder whether or not he would find a large difference in military matters /procedures compared with his previous service with the Manchesters?

In August 1918 the components of the 14th Div. received radical change.   In the case of the 42nd Brigade, the 16th Manchesters were serving with the 6th(Wilts.Yeo.)Wiltshires, together with the 14th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

The other brigades were a mixture of Light Infantry and line regiments.   I understand that Light Infantrymen marched at 140 paces to the minute as opposed to 120 paces to the minute.   I wonder, when on the move, some compromise was necessary?   PhilipG.
The only difference that Lt Butler would have experienced would have been on the non combatant side,peacetime soldering,parades etc,on the battlefied everything would have been the same as for an ordinary infantry battalion.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 05:18:55 PM »
artyhughes,

Very many thanks for your information.  PhilipG.

Offline Schushila

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2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 08:06:29 PM »
Hi everyone and thank you for adding me to the forum. I saw you have a thread on Leonard C Butler already but I would be very grateful if anyone could tell me how I could get more information about him and him being a POW. Are there documents that I can check or get copies of?

I am sorry if I sound a little dense but it is all very new to me.

Many thanks

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 11:43:36 AM »
Hello and welcome to the forum.
As well as the information contained in the thread there is his service file, which is only available to view at the National Archives.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C681575

Charlie

Offline Schushila

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2019, 03:34:40 PM »
Thanks Charlie,

I am having a good dig around and have been able to confirm that the one mentioned is 100% who I am looking for. The documentation I have seen says he wasn't registered as as POW but he seems to have been MIA for quite a while.

Offline Schushila

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2019, 03:38:06 PM »
The records indicate that this officer was attached to the 8th Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps and was made a POW on the 21st March 1918 whilst in action with that battalion during the severe fighting at Urvillers (south of St. Quentin).    Particularly interesting is that the German accounts of the fighting mention especially the prolonged resistance by the battalion in the defence of that village.    Lt. Butler was repatriated on the 14th December 1918.

Any info. would be appreciated. PhilipG.

I have the records of him being attached to 8th Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps but can't find reference to him being made a POW or where he was interred. Do you have any pointers for me Philip?

Offline charlie

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Re: 2nd Lt. L.C.Butler : Manchester Regt. Attd. K.R.R.C.
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2019, 04:59:34 PM »
Although an enquiry was made to the Red Cross they have no record of him being a PoW
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5314488/3/2/

The index card records that he was presumed missing on the 19th March .

Charlie