Author Topic: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914  (Read 6003 times)

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2019, 09:00:23 PM »
                                                                                                            Sgt. Percy Rothwell

The CWGC records show that this NCO's name is on the La Ferte - sous - Jouarre Memorial as he died on the 16th September 1914, presumably at Sainte Marguerite, Aisne Department, located north of the river Aisne and east of Soissons.    May I suggest that there may be some confusion here, because St. Julien Dressing Station Cemetery is in Langemark-Poelkapelle, Belgium.
(Both Rothwell & Morris are mentioned in Mack's Miscellany - Chivres Village 29.9.2009).    PhilipG.

timberman

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2019, 09:21:27 PM »
 
 Philip
 I've remove my post on the dressing station, but still think
that if his ID was remove in the hospital and his body was later
reburied they would not know who he was.

 CSM James Gust Morris widow later married
 CSM Samuel Henry Rabone 5639 Manchester Regiment in 1919

 Neil
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 09:24:14 PM by timberman »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »
Timberman,

Thank you.    I see your point.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2019, 04:44:24 PM »
Mack,                                   

                                                                                              CSM James G. Morris Medaille Militaire (France)

It would seem that the Medaille Militaire which is awarded to Other Ranks for valour in combat can be awarded posthumously, as I discovered a name recently where this had been the case.

It would also appear, that to find out when such an award was made using internet facilities could be an onerous task.    PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2019, 08:23:26 PM »
Mack,
                                                                                                                                Sgt. Percy Rothwell

At first sight the position you describe seems implausible.   However, that may not be so.  There could have been a farm called Julien farm at which the RAMC set up a dressing station as Timberman kindly points out.    "Soldiers Died" has this NCO recorded as DOW.    It was mention of her visiting France that was interesting.    Did she really go to St. Marguerite in 1920?   It's a fair drive even today from Calais to St Marguerite.

The paucity of the return of the Sgt's personal effects to his widow could suggest a medical orderly at work.   There were wartime allegations that it was not always the case that personal belongings found their way home.   The initial letters RAMC were given new words, I believe.    PhilipG.

Offline mack

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2019, 09:35:46 PM »
how else would she have known about a place called st marguerite,the people who told her how he died and the place of burial must have been there,and could only have been fellow comrades from his battalion who knew him,his wife emma must have known who they were,otherwise how would she gain her information,she isn't going to spend money that she can ill afford,to travel all that way without some kind of positive info

mack

Offline charlie

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2019, 10:03:16 PM »
There was a Ste Marguerite a couple of miles roughly south of Comines, which is much nearer than the town near Soissons.

Charlie

timberman

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2019, 12:11:46 AM »
On the 12th the battalion was billeted in Chacrise,
on the 13th they crossed the Aisne and attacked Sainte Marguerite.
This was a distance of 11Km, they then took up a position in woods
West Of Chivres Village.
They stayed there until the 20th and went into reserve shell proof trenches.
21st and the 22nd the companies took it in turns to take up rallying positions.
On the 23rd they crossed the Aisne and took up billets in Jury.

Going by what this wife was told is it possible that he was wounded on the 13th
with the attack on Sainte Marguerite then evacuated to a farm call Julien away from
Sainte Marguerite. The soldiers made a mistake by saying the farm was at Sainte
Marguerite? or the farm was destroyed later and the graves lost.

On the 24th the 14th Brigade was relieved by the 15th Brigade at Missy, Chivres wood
and Sainte Marguerite.

Timberman




 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 12:20:22 AM by timberman »

timberman

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2019, 08:50:09 AM »
 Thanks to Mack for pointing me to this letter.

 The following is the letter that Mrs Rothwell sent on the 17th Sept 1920
 saying she had already been to France.
 In the letter it does say the the farm was near Sainte Marguerite.

 The letter was attached to his service records.
 Click on the picture to make it bigger.

 Timberman
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 09:57:22 AM by timberman »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2019, 09:52:56 AM »
Timberman,

Many thanks.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2019, 08:41:00 PM »
Mack,

As regards my recognising the source of the info. concerning Rothwell's death, I did in fact immediately recognise that it must have come from his comrades.   The family had a similar experience concerning info in respect of a death of a relative in 1916.

Unfortunately, your paraphrasing of Emma's letter suggested that when visiting France she went to St. Marguerite in 1920.  My query - Reply No. 19 - was "Did she really go to St. Marguerite in 1920?" was not answered.   I now see that you sent Timberman a copy of this lady's letter addressed to Inf. Records - Reply 23.   From this copy letter I note that she did indeed go to France, but not to St. Marguerite.  In fact she went to "the Graves Bureau".   There were four of these units and they were part of the CWGC's "Office of the Graves Bureau".   In this connection, may I suggest that she visited the Arras bureau?

Lastly, I was disappointed that you were unable to send me a copy of the lady's letter.    Philip G.....................................................



 

Offline mack

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2019, 08:58:42 PM »
hiya Philip
I didn't send neil the letter,i just told him where to find it,i am a dinasour when it comes to PCs,i am very good at googling but that's my entire expertise with computers,my granddaughter has to help me with a E.mail,i asked neil if he would post it on the forum for you guys


mack
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 09:11:25 PM by mack »

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2019, 09:12:25 PM »
                                                                                         CSM J.G. Morris : Medaille  Militaire (France)

Assuming that the French would wish to honour British units and British soldiers, I see that in September 1914 the British were in the Chivres area, Aisne fighting alongside men of the French Sixth Army who were on the British Army's left flank.   PhilipG.

timberman

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2019, 09:44:04 PM »
The following is map showing the positions of the armies
on the 14th of September 1914.
Click on it to make it bigger.

Timberman

Offline PhilipG

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Re: 8942 Pte. J.Cooke : 2nd Bn. Manchester Regt. : ,Kia 20.9.1914
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2019, 07:19:06 AM »
Timberman,

Thank you.  This is exactly what is needed to illustrate aspects of the thread.   PhilipG.