Author Topic: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914  (Read 12061 times)

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2016, 05:31:01 PM »
Philip

A couple of things in response to your comments.
These are only observations on what we have found out
during this very interesting topic.

The First World War
 
The Special Reserve Battalions.

3rd (Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : at Ashton-under-Lyne. A depot/training unit,
it moved on mobilisation to the Humber defences at Cleethorpes.

4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : at Ashton-under-Lyne. A depot/training unit, it
moved on mobilisation to the Humber defences at Riby. Later
moved to Tetney and then Grimsby, all as part of Humber Garrison

Were never intended to be mobilized as a fighting formation, 
but simply to provide trained drafts to their Regular Battalions
in the event of a national emergency. In August 1914, the
Special Reserve Battalions were made up to strength with
an influx of Regular Army Reservists. From the outbreak of
war until the end of 1915, these Battalions provided a steady
flow of reinforcement drafts to their Regular Battalions, a task
that eventually bled them dry of men. Thereafter the Special Reserve
Battalions became training units for the new Kitchener Armies.

The Special Reservist

The recruit would be obliged to serve for a period of six years.
During that time he would first complete six months continuous
training at a Militia Barracks. These barracks were spread throughout
the UK either as stand-alone, such as Barnet, or beside a Regular Army
depot such as at Kingston in Surrey. By the outbreak of the WW1, most
Special Reserve Battalions had moved out of Militia Barracks and into
Regimental depots.
Having completed six months initial training, the Reservist would return
to civilian life with an obligation of 28 days continuous training every year.


 I don't think Phillip was a The Special Reservist but a
Regular Army Reservists that had been in the army either
in the 2nd or the 1st battalion (this may not be correct and I'm
open to being told so) from what I think, the reservists that where
sent to Ireland on the 7th and the 8th where Regular Army Reservists
as these would of been the most experienced and had to be assembled
very quickly from the 5th of August when the battalion was told to mobilize.
 The 1st Bn were already up to strength and in India, so all the Regular
Army Reservists would go to Ireland this did include the soldiers that
were already at the depot or on leave etc. The fact he was already a
L/Cpl when he went to France helps with my thoughts.

Looks like one of your last posts has gone missing Philip?

With regards to Phillip's being reported missing this must of been
done on the 24th of August for this date to be used later
as determining the date when he died, after the army had exhausted
all lines of inquiry to see if he was still alive. 
This is confirmed by the missing roll published in March 31st 1915
that included Phillip's name.
(It's a shame I did not find this information a bit earlier)

These are only my own thoughts but I don't think we will ever
really know how Phillip ended up in Ireland with the 2nd Bn
unless something in the family history turns up to give an
explanation as the dates of where he was working don't really tie in
with any explanation we can give.

Timberman





« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 08:01:20 PM by timberman »

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2016, 11:58:40 PM »
Timberman, Charlie, PhilipG, & Mack
As you all know, I have been puzzled from the beginning about the date 24th August (1914) specifically ascribed to the death of PJ and recorded as such on the Memorial at La Ferte-sous-Jouarre. In the absence of any documentation in addition to that which we have already looked at, we can, as you rightly say, only speculate as to the date and circumstances surrounding his death and the reporting thereof.

Having read through very carefully all the suggestions put forward for the possible sequence of events and bearing in mind that contemporary records held by the Red Cross, and possibly supplied by the Germans, may have been lost or destroyed (including, possibly, the original report of PJ’s death from wounds on 24th August from which all later records were simply copied), perhaps I might add a theory of my own, though I must confess right away that I am very much a newcomer to military history.

I think we can accept that PJ died on the field of battle from wounds received in mortal combat, rather than from fatigue or illness at some point during the long retreat from Mons, and also that he has no known grave. (ICRC card – “blessé et disparu” , Certificate of Death – “Died of wounds”, Soldiers who Died - KIA, news received by his wife in October 1914  -  “last seen in action firing at the Germans”).
The date of his death, however, seems to have been the only one reported on that particular day, and, despite the appearance of "Reumont" on the Informal Will, the place is uncertain. There were no casualties among the Manchesters recorded on 23rd August (Battle of Mons), and  PJ’s name was not among the many casualties from the Regiment reported at the Battle of Cateau on 26th.

It seems reasonable, therefore, to suppose, that his death took place on a battlefield, somewhere, on 24th or 25th August?

No-one has so far suggested that it was at  the Battle of Elouges, which took place on 24th August 1914, during the retreat.

I have just read an account by war historian Brig. Gen. Sir  J.E.Edmonds of the above Engagement, fought by the 5th Division, which involved mainly the Norfolks and Cheshires of the 15th Brigade, and resulted in greater total losses for the Division than those sustained at Mons on the 23rd, the Norfolks alone leaving 100 men wounded on the battlefield!  He says “The 14th Brigade, on the left of the 13th, remained in comparative quiet, the 2nd Manchesters, part of  which had been moved up to the left of the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, alone of the 14th Brigade came under heavy artillery fire.“

Does anyone have any more information about this? Since only part of the 2nd Battalion was  involved, perhaps this is why it has not been recorded by diarists such as Major Swindell?

In another account of the same battle (in The Gunners of August 1914), author John Hulton describes how “in a powerful display of solidarity and courage, soldiers of the 1st Bn.  Manchester Regiment  and 1st Bn. KOYLI stayed with the guns under heavy and persistent fire until the orders (to retreat) came some time later.” (I presume 1st Bn. was an error and should have read 2nd Bn.)

Was this, perhaps, where PJ met his death on 24th August?I don’t suppose we shall ever know for certain, but 
any comments/observations on the above theory, or any further detail regarding the part played by the 2nd Manchesters at Elouges would be welcomed.


M.

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2016, 08:36:42 AM »
If anyone else would like to read the
 
HISTORY OF THE GREAT WAR BASED ON OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS
BY DIRECTION OF THE HISTORICAL SECTION OF THE COMMITTEE OF IMPERIAL DEFENCE
MILITARY OPERATIONS
FRANCE AND BELGIUM, 1914 MONS, THE RETREAT TO THE SEINE, THE MARNE AND THE AISNE AUGUST OCTOBER 1914
COMPILED BY
BRIGADIER-GENERAL James Edward Edmond
C.B., C.M.G., R.E. (Retired), p.s.c.

(capital letters imply your shouting, I just cut and pasted from my copy so is as is)

Just follow the link.

https://archive.org/details/3edmilitaryopera01edmouoft

Timberman

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2016, 08:39:29 AM »
Taken from the above book

The National Reserve
The last of the preparations for defence that requires mention here is the formation of the National Reserve, initiated by private enterprise in August 1910 with the approval of the Secretary of State for War and the Army Council. Its object was to register and organize all officers and men who had served in and left any of the military or naval forces of the Crown, with a view to increasing the military strength of the country in the event of imminent national danger. The National Reserve was divided into two classes : I one to reinforce existing units of the Regular Army, and the other to fill up vacancies in the Territorial Force, to strengthen garrisons, guard vulnerable points, or perform any other necessary military duties either as specialists or fighting men. By 1914, the National Reserve numbered about 350,000. On mobilization many of the members rejoined military and naval service ; the remainder formed eventually the nucleus of the Royal Defence Corps.

Timberman

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2016, 11:48:13 AM »
Timberman,

Many thanks, indeed, for the trouble you have taken in listing the type of Reserve formations operating in 1914 in the Manchester Regiment.  Much appreciated.  Your expertise in this subject is undoubted.

(My theory that Pte Jones could be in the Special Reserve was influenced by the date of death on his Death Certificate, i.e 33 years, whereas Militia tells us that it should have been 37 years.   As I previously mentioned, a Special Reservist "could not serve beyond the age of 40" and I then wondered if such a regulation caused Pte Jones to give a wrong age in order to ensure his enlistment.)  Thanks again. PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2016, 12:23:51 PM »
Militia,

I write to congratulate you on the excellent "summing up" you have undertaken in respect of Pte Jones and whose death we must now consider took place on the 24th August 1914 at Mons.

I have referred to my 1926 copy of the "Military Operations - France & Belgium 1914".   I have also examined the relevant maps and find that on the 23rd August 1914, the 2nd Manchesters were in the line south of the canal at Montroeul sur Haine.   Turning to the text headed "Mons" for the period 9 am to 2pm of the 24th August 1914, it states that about 11 am the 2nd Manchesters retreated "....the Manchesters being under heavy artillery fire".  I offer as a suggestion that this could have been the time when Pte Jones was wounded and later died.  As regards Elouges,  I found no mention of the 2nd Manchesters on the relevant map.

Thus, I feel that we have now, perhaps, reached the end of this interesting topic and I hasten to thank you for raising the matter and for your valuable contributions.  Best regards, PhilipG.

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2016, 04:48:30 PM »
The 2nd Bn Manchester's were not at the Battle of Elouges.
This is a map with the layout of the forces that were at Elouges.
Click on the picture to make it bigger.

Timberman
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 04:55:13 PM by timberman »

Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2016, 07:16:37 PM »
One thing has intrigued me in respect of this soldier and that is "how did he become militarily proficient to qualify for immediate call up upon the outbreak of war"?   I seek your views on this suggestion. PhilipG.

Philip,
I would suggest that if he was on the Regular Reserve that he would have been liable to attend some sort of training every year but I have not been able to find any definitive proof of this. During my time on the Regular Reserve I was required to attend a days training every year and after 6 years on the Reserve I was still considered well enough trained in 1990 to be offered the opportunity to volunteer to spend an unspecified amount of time in Iraq at Her Majesty's expense. This is obviously not relevant to 1914 but I cannot imagine that things were that different back then.

Militia, Timberman
How this fits in with the 2nd Bn not being involved at Elouges I do not know but the 7 men of the Bn I referred to earlier (Sgt Pinchien, Cpl Moore, L/Cpl Moulding and Ptes King, Maloney, Morrow and Ryan) are recorded as having been taken at Dour on the 24th.

Charlie

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2016, 03:57:00 PM »
Re: 2nd Manchesters at Elouges -  My profuse and abject apologies ...... ("Fools rush in........" etc. etc.!)  :-[ :-[ :-[
Presumably the engagement at Dour remains a possibility?   Quien sabe?

Meanwhile my sincere thanks to everyone again for all your kind words, helpful suggestions and the very interesting additional  information you have all contributed towards this (unexpectedly) widely extended  topic.

Militia.



Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2016, 12:16:50 PM »
Militia,

You will recall that the General Register Office recorded Pte Jones' forename as Phillip and the CWGC quoted his forename as Philip.  I recently raised the matter with the Commission and they have now informed me that their records in this respect have been suitably altered to agree with those of the General Register Office.  PhilipG.