Author Topic: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914  (Read 12043 times)

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2016, 03:31:42 PM »
PhilipG,

Did you have any success with your request for a Death Certificate for PJ ? Some time after discovering in a South Wales daily paper dated 28 August 1915 the appeal for information about  his whereabouts which  (I believe) had  been sent in by his brother in Swansea, I discovered, in a copy of the same newspaper dated two days  earlier (ie. 26 August 1915)...... the following item :-

"Mrs. Jones, of 4 Francis Street, Swansea, has just been officially notified of the death on August 21st 1914 at Reumont of her husband Private Phillip Jones, of the Manchester Regiment.
Thus official notification has been received twelve months after the death had taken place."

I can quite believe that the date of death (21st)  is, maybe, a printer's/clerical  error, and that perhaps, with so many casualties being reported at that time, it was not realised by the editor of the newspaper that this was a reference to the same man who was described as "Corporal" in the appeal, and whose home "where Mrs. Jones still resides" was said to be at  "Wilmslow"  (even though she was "at present in Swansea"), hence the publishing of the appeal two days later went ahead.

However, I wonder if this late notification was prompted by the enquiry with the Red Cross dated 25th July 1915 (though the handwriting of the month is unclear), and if this means that the Death Certificate was not actually issued until late August 1915 by which time further checks would have been made with the Regiment?

Would welcome your comments.

M.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2016, 04:42:00 PM »
Militia,

Thank you. I am still awaiting a copy of this soldier's Death Certificate and will advise as soon as it is received.  Surely, it must arrive soon. Regards, PhilipG.


Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 08:11:48 PM »
The second date on the reverse of the index is definitely 25 Feb 1915 not 25 July, the month is in abbreviated French - Fév for Février.

Charlie

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2016, 11:50:41 AM »
Oops! Many thanks, Charlie.
(Should've realised that  :-[ :-[ :-[ )
M.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 01:21:44 PM »
Militia,

The Certified Copy of Entry of Death relating to this soldier has now been received.  I give details and await comments.

Regtl. or Army Number :  160
Rank    : Private
Name in Full (Surname First)   Jones Phillip
Age : 33
Country of Birth : England.
Date of Death: 24.8.1914.
Place of Death : France.
Cause of Death : Died of Wounds.

Regards, PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 01:59:42 PM »
Died of Wounds as cause of death usually means that the Soldier died when in medical care ???

Charlie

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 11:16:05 PM »
PhilipG,
 
Thank you very much for your efforts to obtain the Death Certificate for PJ (- at least we did not have to wait as long for it as his poor widow did!)  I must admit, however, that I was somewhat surprised at the "vagueness" of some of the information contained therein. Do you have the date when the Death Certificate was actually issued, and to whom it would have been sent (family/Regiment)?

Comments


My initial impression was that it had been written up some considerable time after the event - possibly by someone assigned to "tidy up the books", who had simply learned from the ICRC card  that PJ had been reported as "wounded and missing" after the Battle of Mons on 23rd, so it would be reasonable to assume - and therefore to record -  that he had "died from his wounds" on the following day.

His age is, perhaps, an "estimate" (he was actually 37, not 33).  His true age  appears on his Marriage Certificate   of 1899,  and on the census returns of 1901 and 1911.
 
A lack of detail/accuracy  regarding his place of birth is understandable, but I was surprised to see that the "place of death" was not more specifically mentioned, particularly in view of the information given on the will and folder.


I would much value your own comments.

M

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2016, 10:13:55 AM »
Militia,

Thank you for your comments.  May I give some observations?

I have always presumed that the Authorities' letter informing the next of kin of a soldier's death, (or that he was presumed dead on account of the passage of time) was acceptable as proof of death.  Thereafter, if a more formal document was later required, it was necessary to apply for a "Certified Copy of the Entry of Death" as I have recently done, a document often referred to as the "Death Certificate".

As regards Pte Jones' "Death Certificate", I am presently content with what was written.  In respect of his name, you have explained the background in this connection.   With regard to the age of 33 quoted when age 37 was expected to be recorded, I now wonder if he gave a false age for recruitment purposes?  The place of his death is given as France.  I was expecting "France & Flanders" as given in the "Soldiers Died " publication.  The cause of death is in line with Charlie's research with the Red Cross - "wounded & missing".

Yet another matter is intriguing.   Where and when did he have his military training which qualified him for immediate service with the BEF?

As to his medal awards, he would have been entitled to the "Mons Star" it would seem.   Private Jones was truly an "Old Contemptible".

PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2016, 06:44:37 AM »
Timberman & Charlie,

I refer to my question (above) "where and when did he have his military training which qualified him for immediate service with the BEF?"

The answer could lie with the contributions by both of you concerning the ICRC enquiry by Colour Sergeant Morgan of the 7th (Cyclist) Battalion Welsh Regiment.   The unit was part of the Territorial Force and members of that Force could volunteer for active service abroad.  I wonder if Jones was originally with this Cyclist battalion before transferring to the 2nd Manchesters?   What do you think, please? 
PhilipG.

Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2016, 09:05:48 AM »
Philip,
I think it more likely that on account of his number he was a reservist. His number - 160 - suggests enlistment in the Manchesters between July 1904 and March 1905.

Charlie

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2016, 02:18:34 PM »
Philip

I agree with Charlie, I have been looking through all my data base
mainly because 160 as a service number has been bugging me and I
know I have seen it before.

He was a reservist with the Manchester Regiment, this is based on the fact
that he joined the 2nd Bn in Ireland and went to France as a L/Cpl.
Because the call up was rushed they would of called on their own
reservists first and these would of reported to the Regimental depot.
Also the soldiers that generally that had been in the reserves for
the less time would of gone first and the others sent to the Reserve Battalions
to make sure they were fit for active service.

Comments on this theory would be welcome.

Timberman

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2016, 04:56:24 PM »
Charlie & Timberman,

Thank you to both.  I am sure you are right, of course.  I still wonder why Sgt. Morgan of a different regiment comes into this interesting story.  Perhaps the family know of the reason.  On another matter.   I am wondering whether or not I should point out that the General Register Office records are not in agreement with those of the CWGC in respect of  our soldier's forename.  Best regards to both of you. PhilipG

Offline mack

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2016, 06:58:07 PM »
if Philip died of wounds two days before the battalion was in action,why hasn't he got a known grave,in order for them to know that he DOWs someone must have witnessed it,the germans had no record of him as dying in their care and if he died in a british aid post he would have a grave.

mack

Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2016, 07:40:01 PM »
Mack,
If had died while in British medical care I suppose the simplistic answer is that his grave was lost. We know from previous experience that the information supplied to the Red Cross by the Germans in 1914 wasn't as accurate as it could have been. I think the first list of British dead supplied to the RC by them was in April 1915 and if you remember it was full of errors.

Charlie

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2016, 07:49:29 PM »
Mack

The battalion was in action from the 23rd and getting
casualties according to the Bn diaries and
The Diary of Major Swindell - 2nd Battalion
Manchester Regiment that was written at the time.

Timberman