Author Topic: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914  (Read 12096 times)

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2016, 01:55:19 PM »
Hello PhilipG,

Re. G. Irwin.....In a word....Yes.
There was an excellent photo of the names on the Le Cateau Memorial posted on the Forum by "John W" on 15 Nov. 1914 under heading "Photos from Le Cateau Battlefield  26.08.2014.
I shall be back later with names of the 5 from 2nd Manchesters which I have found commemorated on the Swansea Cenotaph (photo posted yesterday).

M.

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2016, 05:44:15 PM »
The following is an assumption of what I think happened and why I think Philip Jones
did die on the 24th August 1914 and was the first confirmed member of the Manchester
Regiment to die in the First World War. This is based on information found in the History
of the Manchester Regiment, personnel diaries and the War diaries.


A lot of records were lost in the retreat, but looking through the records
I have, there is different information depending on what you read and
who was writing it.
Unless we can find the answer in black and white we can only speculate.



The Diary of Major Swindell - 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment
From the above diary

Aug 23rd 1914.
[Thulin] Inspection of billets by the CO at 9.30am. Heard big guns fire at 11-0am. Watched shells burst over Mons. Battalion fell in 11-30am and took up position along side canal. Engagement started 12-30pm. Heavy firing (both artillery and rifle) between 2pm and 7-30pm. A few casualties.

From the history of the Manchester Regiment the following.

During the operations of the 23rd the casualties in the Battalion amounted to 12 Killed and wounded.

There are no records of any Soldiers dying on the 23rd of August either on the CWGC site or the Soldiers that died files.

24th Lost back part of the machine gun wagon and a few men.
25th The History of the Manchester’s records 3 casualties on this day.
Also on the retirement from Bavrai many men of the battalion, including the medical officer and the grooms with the lead horses, took the wrong road eventually fetching up with some of the First Army Corps at Landrecies and not being able to rejoin the battalion again for six weeks.
Aug 25th 1914.
[Bavey] Moved off at 4-45am distance 25 miles. Retiring. Very hot, arriving at Le Cateau 1-30pm Took up position.

26th In the Manchester Regiment there were 14 Officers and 339 other ranks killed, missing or wounded. Many of the wounded had to be left behind.
On the retreat from Le Cateau when the Battalion got to Maretz a roll call was called and checked and only 8 Officers and 339 other ranks were found to be with the Battalion, other rejoined later including the medical officer (six weeks later)

The battalion strength on the morning of the 23rd was 1200 Officers and O/R the total, on the evening of the 26th the strength was less than 400 Officers and O/R. The rest were either killed, missing, wounded or POW.
54 Manchester’s are registered as dying on the 26th.

So my conclusion is that due to records being lost or the general mayhem of the retreat all the soldiers that died either on the 23rd, 24th and the 25th were all registered as date of death being on the 26th.
Unless it could be proved otherwise as with Philip someone must have come forward and said he was one of the Casualties that was killed or wounded on the 24th and had not been seen after that date so it was assumed that was the date of death?

Timberman

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 07:17:18 PM »
Philip

ST. QUENTIN NORTHERN COMMUNAL CEMETERY

With regards to
IRWIN, G
Private   2199   26/08/1914      Manchester Regiment   United Kingdom   XVI. 18. 11.   

There are only 5 first world war British soldiers buried in this cemetery 2 for the 26th and one for the 28th.
On the Graves Registration Reports which has been revised, his name is spelt wrong and date of death is wrong as well, both have been revised (copy attached).
I wonder with the dead toll being a lot higher than just these 3 soldiers if the local people had buried them.


LOCKE, E
Private   8878   28/08/1914      Lincolnshire Regiment   United Kingdom   XVI. 20. 11.   
PEARSON, JOHN HENRY
Private   11465   26/08/1914   30   King's Own Scottish Borderers   United Kingdom   XVI. 18. 17.   

ST. QUENTIN (FAUBOURG-D'ISLE) COMMUNAL CEMETERY    France    Aisne    1
ST. QUENTIN CABARET MILITARY CEMETERY    Belgium    West-Vlaanderen    462
ST. QUENTIN NORTHERN COMMUNAL CEMETERY    France    Aisne    7

These are the only burials in any of the St Quentin Cemeteries from August 1914. 

Timberman

Click on the picture to make it bigger

Sorry if we have side tracked from Philip Jones.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 07:19:02 PM by timberman »

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 10:21:46 PM »
Many thanks, PhilipG and Timberman, for your theories on when and how PJ died, and how his date of date came to be recorded as 24th August. (I have taken the precaution of printing out your postings this time ....just in case  ;)  )
I don't suppose that in cases such as these, in the absence of  more precise information - even if this is only second hand or "hearsay" -  we can ever do more than speculate and come to a reasonable conclusion by putting together all the data we have. I am, nevertheless, grateful for your views, and for all the additional information you have supplied about the likely circumstances surrounding his death. Your conclusion that he probably died at Mons is strengthened by the note on the ICRC card which reads "Blesse et disparu combat de Mons". I shall be very interested to know what it says on his Death Certificate.

Regarding his "low" regimental number, is it possible to know from this when he enlisted? My reason for asking is that  the appeal for information which appeared in the local newspaper (and which I quoted from in an earlier posting) begins " When the War broke out, one of the first reservists to respond to the call was Corporal (actually "Lance" Corporal) Phillip (sic) Jones of the 2nd Manchesters." Does this mean  that he had completed a course of military training earlier, or simply that he had volunteered to be part of the equivalent of the "Home Guard" if required? He was not in any kind of military service in either 1901 or 1911.

Meanwhile here, as promised, are the names of those members of the 2nd Battalion  recorded on the Cenotaph at Swansea, which I thought might be of interest to other readers .


Swansea Cenotaph – Manchester Regiment WWI
2nd Battalion
P (Philip) Perkin Jones, d. Aug. 1914, aged 37
Herbert Barlow, d. 1918, aged 21
Stephen Lamont, d.1918, aged 19
(Sgt.)  T.J. (Thomas James) Rice, d. Oct. 1914, aged 33
(Sgt.) Samuel T. Ward, d. 1920, aged 21

(Further details of  these and the other 8 named on the brass plaque in the photograph posted earlier may be obtained from the CWGC site.)

M.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2016, 10:43:11 AM »
Militia,

Firstly, thank you for the additional material re the Swansea Cenotaph which I found very interesting.  Secondly, I would mention that I am no expert on the type of engagements available to recruits prior to the Great War.  I suspect the Forum has experts on this subject.  However, it is my understanding that a recruit could be offered an engagement of say, 12 years, broken up as to 7 years with the Colours and 5 years on the Reserve.  This engagement could and did leave a soldier with a 5 years liability to recall and that would have been the case with some of the soldiers fighting with the Manchesters at Mons.  (Hence the plaintive cry of yesteryear  - "Roll on my 7 and 5" which could be heard in the "Naafi" in WW2).

From research, it was apparent that many of the reservists recalled to the Colours in 1914 were unfit to undertake the 200 miles or so march from Mons to the Aisne and suffered great physical discomfort.  There was another engagement which my father entered into in 1914, namely, a "Hostilities Only" term of service, a form of engagement with which I later became quite familiar!  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2016, 12:10:54 PM »
Timberman,

I entirely agree with your stating that the first confirmed member of the Manchester Regiment to die on the 24th August 1914 was Pte Jones.  Over a long period of time, it is my usual practice to accept as correct, the details provided by the CWGC and the Registrar-General.  These bodies, over the years, have advised me that the information they publish emanates from the MOD.  I have no doubt that the Death Certificate ordered in respect of Pte Jones's death will confirm that the date of his untimely death was indeed the 24th August 1914.    However, the production of the folder "Informal Will" kindly produced by Militia, certainly gave us some food for thought.

Re St Quentin Northern Communal Cemetery.   Among the figure of 7 British soldiers buried in that cemetery, there are two who died in 1915, namely, Pte T. Hands of the 1st Bn. King's Own Royal Lancaster Regt. and Rifleman John Hughes of the 2nd Bn. Royal Irish Rifles.  I have visited their graves on several occasions.   These soldiers were somehow left behind as their units resumed the Mons Retreat.  However, they were accommodated by French families for some time, until a young woman reported the existence of these fugitives and they were arrested by the Germans and executed on the 8th March 1915.  The French families were arrested and suffered harsh retribution and deportation.  The girl was denounced and tried after the Great War and sentenced to death in 1921.  PhilipG.


Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2016, 11:56:30 PM »
"Thank you" to everyone  who has contributed to this thought-provoking discussion - especially to Timberman, who has reminded us that Philip Jones' death on 24th, though the first of the Regiment's to be confirmed, was not necessarily the first to have occurred, and to Philip G who has pointed out that, in the horrors and confusion in which the clerical officers found themselves at that time,  niceties of expression and precise dates  were not likely to be a priority to those hastily compiling the diaries and/or records of those missing or wounded.
I look forward to learning what is written on the Death Certificate. As a newcomer to Military History I did not realise that there would be such a document in existence. Would Philip's  widow (Emily Jones, of Wilmslow and/or Swansea) have been awarded a pension once this had been issued,  and if so, would there be a record somewhere of this?

I am pleased that you found the references to the Regiment on the  Swansea Cenotaph of interest, PhilipG, and also the information given on the cover of the "Informal Will", and am glad to have been able to make a small contribution of my own to the Forum.

I am including below two letters  (posted previously but accidentally deleted) written by members of the 2nd Battalion who had been taken prisoner at Le Cateau, but will reserve comment and allow everyone to interpret them as they wish!

M.

Newspaper snippets

 The Pioneer 7 November 1914   
…………The following is from the Daily News, October 29 1914. The writer is Private A. Farrand of the 2nd Manchester Regiment, and his letter dated October 10 comes from Krefeld, Germesdyke, Germany.
Here is his story in his own words:-
“I am sorry to tell you I got wounded on August 26 in the left leg by a piece of shrapnel shell, and was picked up by the Germans. I was taken to hospital by them, having been wounded at a place called Le Cateau.
I am still in hospital. They have been very good to us, and have given us everything we have wanted. Also the nurse has been more than kind to us….
We have plenty of good friends among the Germans. We have Sunday evening services in the ward, also the choir singers. They sing in the grounds on a Sunday evening, and they are more than beautiful singers – the best I have heard for years.”
……………………………………………………………………………………..
Glamorgan Gazette 30 April 1915
............War Topics of Interest – letter sent home by Sgt. F. Pinchien of 2nd Manchesters.
By means of an apt reference to the Parable of the Prodigal Son, Sergeant F. Pinchien of the 2nd Battalion, Manchester Regiment, who was captured at Le Cateau, has managed to inform his wife at Ashton-under-Lyne that he is starving at Doeberitz. In the course of an apparently cheery message he says; “I hope at Easter you read my favourite verse (Luke xv verse 17).” Puzzled, his wife turned up her Bible and read: “And when he came to himself he said “How many hired servants of my father have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger?”
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
   

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2016, 10:39:38 AM »
Militia,

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2016, 11:15:10 AM »
Militia,

You mention reference to the Manchesters on the Swansea Cenotaph.  I was particularly interested in the listing of 59869 Pte Stephen Lamont whose name is engraved upon one of its panels.  This soldier was killed in action on the 4th November 1918 whilst serving with the 2nd Manchesters in their attack over the Sambre-Oise canal near the French village of Ors.  He is buried in Ors Communal Cemetery.  His grave is in the same row as that of Wilfred Owen, who is described by the CWGC as "a poet of  repute" !  I calculate that Lamont's grave is equidistant between Owen's grave and that of Lt.Col. James Neville Marshall VC, MC & Bar, who whilst serving as Commanding Officer of the 16th Bn. Lancs. Fusiliers also fell in the action on the canal on the 4th November.  Colonel Marshall was at one time 2nd in command of the 2nd Manchesters.

Owing to advancing years, I am not expecting to visit Ors, but members of my family are anticipating doing so next year and I will ask them to place a cross on the 19 year old Lamont's grave when they visit the cemetery.  PhilipG.
 

Offline charlie

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2016, 04:45:33 PM »
The ICRC records list 7 men, including Sgt Pinchien, of the 2nd Bn being taken PoW on the 24th.

Charlie

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2016, 05:27:43 PM »
Militia,
I wonder, please, if Pte Jones' will is still in your hands?  I do not wish to intrude as to the name/names of the beneficiaries, although I would suspect it would be his wife - Emily Jones - who would be the legatee.   There is also the interest as to whether or not the forename he used in signing the will form was Phillip or Philip.

You ask if Pte Jones' widow would be eligible for a pension.  It is my understanding that, subject to ministerial approval, a grant, possibly of 13s 2d a week, could be made.  PhilipG.




Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2016, 09:48:27 PM »

Charlie,
Thank you so much for the information about Sergeant Pinchien. How interesting that he says he was was taken prisoner at Le Cateau (???) and that the ICRC records the capture of 7 PoWs on the same date that the death of PJ was confirmed. (24th August) !!!! Yet more "food for thought here, methinks".

Philip G,
The Will, dated August 10th 1914, is clearly signed Phillip Jones. It is very simple and, as you correctly surmise, the sole beneficiary is his wife Emily. (They had no children.)

Regarding the entitlement to a pension, I simply wondered if there would have survived any documentation or correspondence regarding this which might include an address for Emily Jones - either at Swansea or at Wilmslow.

M. 

timberman

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2016, 10:23:34 PM »
UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929 for Phillip Jones

Does give his death as the 26th Aug 1914?????
This could be due to the date the form was filled in
and before the right date was agreed.

Click on the picture to make it bigger

Timberman

Offline Militia

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2016, 11:25:04 PM »
Very interesting.

Many thanks, Timberman.

M.

Offline PhilipG

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Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2016, 11:58:46 AM »
Timberman,
 
No doubt you noticed that the Record Number on the page of the ledger sheet you produced (219984) is also quoted on the "Informal Will" folder.  This suggests that this document was involved in the necessary calculations to made on behalf of the deceased soldier in respect of outstanding pay and War Gratuity.    In this connection, the authorities paid to Emily Jones as wife and sole legatee, the sum of £3.12.9 and later a War Gratuity of £5 under date 29.7.19. PhilipG.