Author Topic: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914  (Read 12044 times)

timberman

  • Guest

Restored original first post of this topic.


JONES, Private, PHILIP, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914.

Name:   Philip Jones
Birth Place:   Neath, Glam
Residence:   Swansea
Death Date:   24 Aug 1914
Death Place:   France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:   Ashton-under-lyne, Lancs
Rank:   Private
Regiment:   Manchester Regiment
Battalion:   2nd Battalion
Regimental Number:   160
Type of Casualty:   Killed in action
Theatre of War:   Western European Theatre


Private Philip Jones 160 of the 2nd Battalion The Manchester Regiment
is listed as the first soldier to die from this Regiment in WW1.

He died on the 24th of August 1914 and is remembered on the
La Ferte-Sous-Jouarre Memorial
at Seine-et-Marne France

 Timberman
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 08:48:04 PM by timberman »

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 08:39:24 PM »
Hi Militia,
It looks like your thread has been inadvertently removed. Hopefully it can be restored.

In answer to your query re the dates of the enquiry to the ICRC, there are two dates on the reverse of the card - click on the arrow chasing it's tail. The first enquiry was received on 16.12.1914 and will relate to the original typed information on the card. The second enquiry was received on 25.02.1915 and will relate to the hand written information.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3980669/3/2/

Charlie

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 08:39:57 PM »
Thanks for the info. re. the ICRC card, Charlie. Every little helps when building up the whole picture. Do the 2 reference numbers on the front of the card relate to the 2 enquiries?

It was a little disconcerting when I logged on earlier to find the thread had disappeared without trace. (Hope it wasn't something I said  :-[ :-[ :-[  !!!! )

Shall be back later.

M.

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2016, 08:40:23 PM »
Yes they do, the original enquiries were destroyed by the Red Cross as soon as the index card was made out.

Charlie

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2016, 08:40:49 PM »
It was nothing you said, someone just pressed the wrong button.

Hopefully we can reinstate the topic.
If not I'll just start it again. :)
As I would like to reply to Philips question.

Timberman

Offline Militia

  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2016, 09:05:20 PM »
Hi Timberman,

I do hope you can re-instate this thread, as I, too, wanted to take up a few points with Philip.

Meanwhile, here is a photograph I took earlier today of the 13 names listed on one of the brass panels on the Swansea Cenotaph under "Manchester Regiment", which I thought might be of more general  interest. Unfortunately, Battalion numbers are not given.

Philip appears as " Jones P Perkin ", "Perkin" being his grandmother's maiden name which he adopted as an adult in addition to his own for some purposes - presumably for clarity of identification.

Please feel free to remove this to another thread if you wish.


timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2016, 09:46:41 PM »
Sadly the original topic has been lost.
But it would be good if anyone had copies of the topic let us know.

Timberman

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2016, 09:47:35 PM »
This is one of the last posts from Militia.

Many thanks, Timberman, Charlie and Mack, for your interest and your comments, which are much appreciated. The lack of precise information available during the general confusion of the retreat from Mons is perfectly understandable. I’m afraid the French expression “blessé et disparu”  had simply conjured up a more horrific picture than its rather more sensitive English equivalent!
In August 1915 (a year after Philip had departed with the BEF), it would appear that his wife, after waiting desperately and in vain at home in Cheshire for news of her husband, had travelled to Swansea to seek the help of Philip’s older brother, whom he had left in charge of his affairs. An appeal for news of Philip was then launched in two South Wales newspapers, in which it was explained that “….since October last year, all trace of him has been lost. The last seen of him was in a turnip field, where he was lying on the ground behind a hedge, firing at the advancing Germans as fast as he could pull the trigger.” She had read in yet another newspaper on 20 November of a gold watch “thought to have been the property of a Sergeant of the gallant Manchester Regiment, which fought with such distinction at Mons and afterwards ” having been found earlier by a member of the Field Ambulance “in a turnip field, after the terrible aftermath of battle”. The watch carried the mark of a jeweller from South Wales,  though she had no way of knowing if it was the watch which she knew her husband carried with him.
Ironically, within days of the appeal being sent to the Press, and before its publication could be halted, she received official notification that he had died almost exactly 12 months earlier at Reumont.

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2016, 09:49:26 PM »
Philip Jones 2nd Bn Manchester Regiment

Timberman

timberman

  • Guest
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2016, 09:50:36 PM »
The informal Will of P Jones

Click on picture to make it bigger
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 09:53:51 PM by timberman »

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2016, 10:24:46 PM »
Timberman, & Militia etc,

This is what I think I wrote recently.

I believe that Pte Philip Jones died at Mons on the 24th August 1914. I base this belief on the fact  that it was normal practice when proceeding on Active Service for soldiers to complete a Will Form.  The illustration depicted and marked "Informal Will", is not a will but a folder utilised for privacy purposes enclosing the will for Philip Jones.  The detail on this "Informal Will" has been completed by an Army clerk who, incidentally, incorrectly recorded the soldier's name as Phillip instead of Philip and whilst at Mons dated the folder 24th August 1914.

In the course of the retreat from Mons, whilst the column, when it reached the cross roads at Le Cateau would prepare for battle, the battalion's transport carrying battalion HQ personnel etc would carry on a further 6 kilometres  to Reumont.  Here the clerk concerned would complete the necessary details on the folder inserting the place name and altering the date to 26th August in the belief that this folder related to one of the 55 soldiers killed on the 26th August at Le Cateau.

In due course, perhaps you would be good enough to check what I have proposed took place.  In the meantime, I await a copy of Jones' Certificate of Death which I have ordered.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2016, 10:32:43 PM »
Militia,

This is what I think I wrote "before the troubles".

Thank you for advising that Jones' name is not on the Suffolk Memorial, a confirmation I think, that he died at Mons. PhilipG.

Offline Militia

  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 10:48:10 PM »
Thank you for your efforts to revive this thread, Timberman.

My initial query regarding this topic concerned  the actual date of death which, as you can see from the covering note entitled "Informal Will",  which accompanied the "Short Form of Will" itself , is rather ambiguous. It seems rather strange that my great uncle (PJ) was the only man of his battalion listed on the La Ferte-sous-Jouarre Memorial to have died on the 24th August, which commemorates those who fell at Mons and at Le Cateau (and 2  later battles). There were, apparently, no deaths earlier than 24th August,  By far the greatest number  died at Le Cateau,on 26th, but he was not listed on the names of those of the Manchesters  which were included on the Suffolk Memorial at Le Cateau, a photograph of which was posted to the Forum in 2014.
 Both Timberman and PhilipG had submitted detailed theories about this, during the past few days, but sadly these posts, and those of Charlie and Mack  have been accidentally deleted. Any other theories would be welcomed.

M. 

PhilipG - I was just about to post the above  when I saw your own posting. Regarding the variation in spelling of Philip, I am sure you have had to deal with this yourself on many occasions. Philip himself usually spelled it and signed it with a double "LL" (as on the actual "Short Form of Will" which accompanied the notice I posted, and on his Marriage Certificate). I doubt he even realised it was spelled with a single "L" on his B.Cert.  His father (also Philip), born 1839, was not literate, and could not sign the B Certs. of his offspring, relying instead on the discretion of the Registrar. Philip, born 1877, was the youngest of his children. I am very interested in your theory that PJ probably died at Mons, and look forward to seeing the Death Certificate - I had not realised that this was obtainable.

M.


Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2016, 01:06:05 PM »
Militia,
Thank you for your info.

You write "It seems rather strange that my great uncle (PJ) was the only man of his battalion..........to have died on the 24th August (1914)............".  From my research it was not necessarily an unusual occurrence.  Indeed, I have never forgotten a War Diary entry which stated: "A quiet day. 1 OR (Other Rank) killed".  I remember it well, because I think the statement could have been better and more kindly put.

You must remember, too, that at the Company Roll Call of the 24th August at Mons, we do not know how many were reported missing and in some cases, possibly wounded, as in the case of Pte Jones.   PhilipG.

I think we must certainly thank you for bringing to the Forum's attention the existence of the folder entitled "Informal Will".  It is a valuable research source.  PhilipG.

Offline PhilipG

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,432
Re: Private, PHILIP JONES, 160, 2nd Bn., Manchester Regiment. 24 August 1914
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2016, 01:37:39 PM »
Militia,

I think you once took an interest in the fact that Philip Jones' service number was a "low one".  I see that 57 men of the 2nd Manchesters are listed as being kia at Le Cateau on the 26th August 1914.  Of this number, I would assess 12 of them as having "low numbers", particularly No. 50 Pte John Noon, whose name is engraved on the panels of the La Ferte-sous-Jouarre Memorial.

Not all those listed as being killed on the 26th August 1914 have no known grave, for I see that 6 soldiers are buried either in Le Cateau Military Cemetery or the Communal Cemetery, a "low number" soldier - No. 138 Pte J.Brown being interred in Le Cateau Communal Cemetery.

I note that No.2199 Pte G. Irwin is buried in St. Quentin Northern Communal Cemetery, whose grave I visited probably 20 years ago.  In this connection, I suspect that he was wounded in action and as the column resumed its retreat he died on the way to St. Quentin, which was the "next stop" (for food and water), in the battalion's retreat to the Aisne. I wonder if Timberman agrees?  Lastly, is Pte Irwin's name on the Suffolk Memorial, please?  PhilipG.