Author Topic: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment  (Read 46756 times)

timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2017, 04:57:22 PM »

PLEASE NOTE
All of the information on this thread is taken from different sources most are copyright of groups or individuals, I have checked the use of sections on all the sites. I understand that if they are being used for non profit or non commercial use it is OK to put them on our site.
Please bear this in mind if you use any of the information on this thread.
Thank-you

If anything does infringe copyright let me know and I will gladly remove it.

I now have written permission to reproduce alot of the articles on this forum. The rest are covered by the statement above.

Neil (Timberman)



ALLEGED INSULT TO THE UNION JACK.

HC Deb 10 April 1893 vol 10 c1817 1817

 COLONEL WARING (Down, N.)
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the insult offered to the National Flag by two soldiers of the Dublin Fusiliers now quartered for musketry practice at Newtownards; whether he is aware that about 9 p.m. on Saturday, 1st April, a corporal and private of that regiment tore down and trampled upon a Union Jack displayed as part of the decorations in honour of the visit of the right hon. Member for East Manchester on the house of Hugh Morgan, in South Street, and that, when remonstrated with for their conduct by the owner of the house, they assaulted him and James Wright who was with him, injuring both of them very seriously with their belts; what steps have been taken to punish these men for their conduct; and whether he will consider the propriety of suggesting to the Commander-in Chief in Ireland the advisability of recalling the detachment to head-quarters.
 MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
The information I have received differs materially from that upon which the hon. and gallant Member appears to have based his question. The following telegram has been received from the General Officer Commanding at Belfast:— Report of incident at Newtownards greatly exaggerated. Two privates Royal Dublin Fusiliers engaged in a brawl with some civilians, all very drunk. Union Jack was not pulled down, and statement that men were encouraged by a corporal is false. Doubtful whether assault was committed by soldiers or by owners of premises. Both fought, and the soldier was severely injured.

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 09:46:47 PM by timberman »

timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2017, 04:58:13 PM »
PLEASE NOTE.

If I post anything on here that anyone objects to let me know by PM and I will gladly remove it ;D

Also the spelling mistakes are theirs not mine, (for once)  :P

Please remember if anyone wants something moving into the open forum let me know by PM, or cut and paste it.

Timberman



WIDOW'S PENSION (MRS. F. BRADWELL).

HC Deb 30 November 1922 vol 159 cc879-80 879
 
  Mr. C. WHITE
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will reconsider the case of Mrs. F. Bradwell, of Bradwell, Derbyshire, widow of Private Charles R. Bradwell, No. 28,234, Manchester Regiment, whose death was due to disability incurred on military service; whether he is aware that this woman is left with three children, the eldest only five years old; whether he is aware that she has been refused a pension on the ground that the man's removal from duty was not caused by the disability from which he is said to have died; and whether he will review the whole case with a view to Mrs. Bradwell receiving a pension?
 Major TRYON
The late soldier died two and a-half years after demobilisation from endocarditis, the first medical evidence of which is dated April, 1922 My medical advisers are unable to find such connection between the cause of the death and the man's military service as will satisfy the conditions of the Royal Warrant, and an award of pension cannot therefore be made to the widow. She has, however, a right of appeal to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal against the decision of the Ministry.
 Mr. WHITE
In that appeal will she be opposed by the Ministry of Pensions, as is usually done?

 Major TRYON
She will be given all the information available.
 Mr. WHITE
How does the Minister expect this poor woman, living on parish relief, adequately to fight her case?
 Major TRYON
The hon. Member, I think, misunderstands altogether the attitude of the Pensions Ministry. Our business is to place all the facts before the tribunal, and those familiar with the work of the tribunals know that.
 Mr. HOGGE
Is it not the case that, while it is true that the Ministry of Pensions furnish a précis of the evidence, the onus of disproving the facts lies upon the poor woman or the poor soldier, and in many cases they can only very inadequately state their case?
 Major TRYON
No, Sir, I do not consider that the onus is at all left upon the applicants. In all the cases that have passed through my hands, and where information, civilian or otherwise, is desired, we make it our business to apply to the Service Departments for medical records, etc., so that we may have all the information that will help the applicant.
 Mr. HOGGE
We have already admitted that; but is not the point this, that after the Ministry has done all that, the person who has to plead before the Court is in that sense incapable, and should there not be some assistance given to him to prove his case?
Mr. SPEAKER
That is a new question.

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 09:47:31 PM by timberman »

timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2017, 04:59:04 PM »
Soldiers and Penal Servitude.

HC Deb 30 May 1906 vol 158 cc402-3 402

MR. LEA
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War with reference to the Annual Report on the Army [Cd. 2696], page 77, what were the names and corps of the nine men serving at Home who were sentenced to penal servitude and the fifteen men serving Abroad who were likewise sentenced in 1905, will he give in each case the offence or offences for which each man was tried, and when, where, and by whom they were tried, also the names of the persons who confirmed the sentences, and what opportunity was given in each case to appeal; and whether the evidence has since been submitted to the Judge Advocate-General, and if he approved of each sentence.
MR. HALDANE
I am glad my hon. friend has given me an opportunity to correct a clerical error in the return. The figures for soliders sentenced to penal servitude in 1905 should have been stated to be, one serving at Home; eleven serving Abroad. All these sentences were inflicted by General Courts-Martial and were confirmed at Home, by His Majesty the King; Abroad, by the General Officer Commanding the troops. The proceedings have all been reviewed by the Judge Advocate-General concerned, and, in India, the confirmations were approved by the Governor-General in Council. The particulars of the cases are as follows:— At Home: a man of the Manchester Regiment was tried at Ashton in January, 1905, for deserting from Ladysmith during the siege. Abroad: a man of the 2nd Border Regiment was tried at Thayatmyo in September, 1905, for wounding with intent to murder, and another of the 1st Royal Munster Fusiliers was tried at Mooltan, in November, 1904, for a similar offence. Seven men of the 1st West India Regiment were tried at Barbados in October, 1904, for perjury. A man of the 1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers was tried in Mauritius, in October, 1904, for striking a lieutenant on duty, and another of the 3rd Lancashire Fusiliers was tried at Middelburg in April, 1905, for striking a sergeant on 403 duty. It is considered, in the interests of the men, not advisable to make public their names. As regards appeal the reply is as given to Question No. 58.†
See preceding Question and Answer.
MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER
Why is it considered necessary to conceal the names of men who deserted to the enemy?
MR. HALDANE
The necessity does not apply specially to that case. The information is always available if required.
MR. LEA
How did the discrepancy in the figures arise?
MR. HALDANE
It was a clerical error in making out the return.

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timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2017, 04:59:31 PM »
WAR OFFICE (AUXILIARY FORCES)— THE TOWER HAMLETS ENGINEER VOLUNTEERS—BURGESS SHORT.

HC Deb 01 March 1888 vol 322 cc1835-6 1835

 MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR (Donegal, E.)
asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, as stated in the evening journal The Star, Mr. George Short, a retired printer, who in 1886 adopted the name of Burgess Short, was in that year, on the recommendation of Colonel Kirby, commanding the Tower Hamlets Engineer Volunteers, appointed lieutenant in that corps, being at the 1836 time some 48 years of age, and never having handled a rifle; whether Colonel Kirby recommended him in 1887 for a captaincy, and whether the War Office refused to promote him, on the ground that such promotion would involve the supersession of four officers equally or better qualified; whether he was introduced in December last by Mr. Morton, of the War Office, to General Lyon Freemantle as "the Editor of The Broad Arrow;" whether, in The Gazette of 9th December, 1887, he was appointed captain in the 3rd and 4th Battalion of the Manchester Regiment of Militia, passing over the heads of 11 lieutenants and six second lieutenants; and, whether he had previously served in the Militia?
 THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY, WAR DEPARTMENT (Mr. BRODRICK) (Surrey, Guildford)
(who replied) said: Nothing is known at the War Office as to the former name or profession of Mr. Burgess Short. He was appointed a lieutenant of the Tower Hamlets Engineers in 1886, being then about, 47 years of age. His promotion to captain in May, 1887, was refused, as he was not qualified, though he did subsequently qualify in August of that year. He called upon General Freemantle in November; but was not introduced by Mr. Morton, nor was General Freemantle aware that he was in any way connected with the Press. Upon the recommendation of the Commanding Officer of the regiment and the General of the District, he was appointed captain in 3rd and 4th battalions Manchester Regiment, on the 10th December, 1887. He passed over the subalterns, none of whom had, or have since, qualified for promotion, although there are still four vacancies for captains in the regiment which cannot be filled up. He had never previously served in the Militia, though he had been attached for instruction to a battalion of the Guards and to the 1st Manchester Regiment.

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timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2017, 05:00:35 PM »
ISSUE OF DEFECTIVE WAR OFFICE TENTS TO VOLUNTEERS.

HC Deb 08 March 1898 vol 54 c983 983
 
 MR. R. ASCROFT (Oldham)
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that in September, 1896, complaints were made by the Colonel in command of the 6th V. B. Manchester Regiment to the Inspecting Officer that the tents supplied were defective and not water-tight; whether he is aware that, notwithstanding such complaints, similar defective tents were again supplied in 1897, and that such tents had been in use for 15 years; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made with a view to Volunteer regiments being in future supplied with proper tents?
 MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS
No special complaints can be traced as having been made in regard to their tents by this battalion in 1896; but the Inspection Report of 1897 did describe their tents as defective, and that report is now under consideration. Large numbers of tents are condemned and replaced every year; but they must be used till they are worn out, and, as they are issued indiscriminately to all classes of troops, it will almost necessarily happen that any particular corps will occasionally have tents in their last stage of serviceability.
 MR. ASCROFT
Will steps be taken in the future to prevent defective tents being issued to the Volunteers?
 MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS
I cannot catch the Question.
 [Mr. ASCROFT repeated it, but the hon. Gentleman was still unable to hear it, and consequently no Answer was given.]

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timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2017, 05:02:41 PM »
EGYPT (MILITARY EXPEDITION)—THE 63RD REGIMENT AND 1ST BATTALION SEAPOBTH HIGHLANDERS.

HC Deb 30 November 1882 vol 275 cc375-6 375
 
 SIR WILLIAM HART DYKE
asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true that the 1st Manchester, 63rd Regiment, and the 1st Battalion of Seaforth Highlanders, lately serving in Egypt, remained on the India Establishment until October 10th; and, whe- 376 ther from time of landing up to that date they received Indian or English pay and allowances?
 THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON
The 1st Manchester and 1st Seaforth Highlanders remained on the Indian Establishment until relieved on it by the 2nd Derbyshire and 2nd Manchester on, I believe, the 14th and 15th of October respectively. From the date of their landing in Egypt up to those dates, they, as I stated last Monday, came on the same scale of pay and allowances as the rest of the British troops with the Expeditionary Force.

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timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2017, 05:03:08 PM »
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.

HL Deb 04 May 1883 vol 278 cc1836-7 1836

VISCOUNT ENFIELD
rose to ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether the officers of the 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment (late 63rd) and the 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders (late 72nd), having received six months' field allowance during service in Egypt, in common with officers of other regiments, had since been called upon to refund the same; and whether those officers ceased to receive the usual rates of Indian pay and allowances after their arrival at Suez in August last, although the regiments to which they belonged were not placed upon the English establishment till the 10th of October? The noble Viscount said, these two regiments landed at Suez in the latter part of the month of August, and on the 10th of October were placed on the English establishment. It was contended that they should not receive higher pay and allowances than other officers; but they had received six months' pay and allowance for duty in the field as well as the other officers who formed part of the Egyptian Expedition; but the six months' field allowance which was issued to the 63rd and 72nd Regiments had been withdrawn. With regard to the 63rd Regiment, he was informed that although the quartermaster had in his hands six months' allowance for the officers, it was not issued to them; but the officers 1837 in the 72nd Regiment had received the six months' pay and allowance and had since been compelled to refund it. Either these regiments were entitled to receive Indian pay and allowances, or they were entitled to receive six months' field allowances. He was quite certain that an unintentional oversight had occurred, and that there was no intention on the part of the Government to deprive the officers of these two distinguished regiments of any allowances to which they were justly entitled.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
My Lords, the fact is the officers referred to were not considered entitled to the field allowance on quitting India, because up to the date of their landing in Egypt they continued in receipt of those higher rates of Indian pay and allowances which include the provision of field equipment, to meet the cost of which the advance in question was given to officers proceeding on service from England. From the date of their landing in Egypt, however, they received the War Office daily rate of field allowance. The regimental authorities of the Seaforth Highlanders drew the whole of the six months' field allowance, and have been called on to refund. A similar claim by the Manchester Regiment has been disallowed. On representations, however, subsequently received, the India Office has under immediate consideration the claims of the officers to the whole six months' advance.

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timberman

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2017, 05:03:39 PM »
THE SEAFORTH HIGHLANDERS—FIELD ALLOWANCE.—QUESTION.

HL Deb 14 June 1883 vol 280 c516 516
 
VISCOUNT ENFIELD
asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether any decision has been arrived at with regard to granting "Field Allowance" in the recent Egyptian campaign to the 1st Battalion of the Manchester Regiment and the 1st Battalion of the Seaford Highlanders? The subject had been alluded to some weeks ago in Parliament, and the noble Earl had promised to give it consideration.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
I am happy to be able to inform my noble Friend that I have approved of the grant to both the battalions in question of the full six months' field allowance. The War Office has been duly informed of this decision.

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2017, 05:04:16 PM »
ARMY—OFFICERS IN THE RESERVE FORCES.—QUESTION.

HC Deb 01 August 1870 vol 203 cc1282-3 1282

MR. W. E. PRICE
said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the schools which in his statement on introducing the Army Estimates, he stated it to be the intention of Government to establish, for the instruction of Officers of the Reserve Forces, When and where such schools will be established, and on what terms Militia Officers will be permitted or required to attend them; and, whether there is any chance of such schools being established in time to permit of Volunteer Officers availing themselves of them before the end of the Volunteer year, 30th November 1870?
 MR. CARDWELL
Sir, it is proposed to establish the schools for the artillery at Woolwich, for the engineers at Chatham, and for the infantry at  Aldershot, London, Glasgow, and Manchester. We shall endeavour to publish the Regulations, so as to open them on September 1. Militia officers will be permitted, but not required, to attend, and will receive the same allowance of 5s. a day which they now receive when they attend regiments of the line.

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2017, 05:04:42 PM »
WAR OFFICE—MILITARY BANDS AT THE MANCHESTER EXHIBITION.

HC Deb 11 August 1887 vol 319 c50 50
 
 CAPTAIN COTTON (Cheshire, Wirral)
asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is the case that permission has been given to some military bands to play at the Manchester Exhibition, while similar permission has been refused to the band of the Royal Artillery; and, if so, why?
 THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE) (Lincolnshire, Horncastle)
Permission was given early in the year for the band of the Royal Engineers to play at the Manchester Exhibition, and later the band of the Gloucestershire Regiment, which is stationed in the Northern District, has played there. For military reasons it has recently been found necessary by the Military Authorities to prohibit bands from playing out of their own districts without special sanction from headquarters.
 CAPTAIN COTTON
Was permission given to the band of the 2nd Life Guards?
 MR. E. STANHOPE
I have no information on the subject; but I will inquire.

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2017, 05:05:12 PM »
ALLEGED ILLEGAL ARREST.

HC Deb 15 April 1889 vol 335 c480 480

 MR. JOHN O'CONNOR (Tipperary, S.)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he was aware that Private J. Smith, Manchester Regiment, was, on the 10th of March last, induced by Sergeant Griffin, Royal Irish Constabulary, to go to the entrance of the police barrack at Bansha, and that, without having committed or being charged with any offence, he was forced into the police barrack, knocked down by Sergeant Griffin, and forcibly prevented by him and Constable Spillane from leaving the barrack; and, if Private Smith has since been sentenced by Court-Martial to imprisonment with hard labour for nine months in respect to the above occurrence?
 THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. E. STANHOPE,) Lincolnshire, Horncastle
It is true that the private, smith, was sentenced by a Court-Martial to nine months' imprisonment in respect of the occurrences mentioned in the question; but on the evidence coming before the Judge Advocate General, he upon the 6th of this month quashed the conviction.

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2017, 05:05:55 PM »
SANITARY CONDITION OF GIBRALTAR.

HC Deb 28 July 1899 vol 75 cc670-1 670

 MR. PIERPOINT
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, since the reception of the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the general and sanitary condition of Gibraltar, any steps have been taken, and, if so, what, in respect of the venereal disease prevailing amongst the garrison; whether he will give the statistics of such disease in the Royal Artillery, in the Royal Engineers, in the Grenadier Guards, in the Coldstream Guards, and in the Manchester Regiment, respectively; whether the report of the Committee will be laid upon the Table without further delay; and, whether the Governor has absolute power to send out of Gibraltar, without reason given, any person who is likely to spread disease amongst the troops.
 
 MR. WYNDHAM
The recommendations of the Committee have necessitated a good deal of correspondence between the three departments concerned (War Office, Admiralty, Colonial Office), and there is every reason to believe that an agreement will be come to with regard to the more important points. I am unable to give the information asked for in the second question, as the statistics do not distinguish between corps. A new Governor will assume office in the autumn, and his views will be ascertained before a final decision is arrived at. The Secretary of State will consult the Colonial Office and the Admiralty as to the desirability of presenting the Report to Parliament.

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2017, 05:06:27 PM »
PART ONE

VOLUNTEER EQUIPMENTS.

HC Deb 13 March 1890 vol 342 cc727-64 727

 SIR E. HAMLEY (Birkenhead)

Mr. Speaker, I have always insisted on the necessity for equipping the Volunteers, and I did so at a time when the services they might render to the country were little appreciated, indeed almost unthought of. The value of the force is now fully recognised, and the Government, as well as its military advisers, have seen that the feeling of the country is far in advance of anything that has been done or proposed in this direction. They have seen that the Volunteers form an indispensable element in the national defence, and they have seen also that to rely on the Volunteers without equipping them is an absurdity. They have, therefore, determined to equip them, and I desire to call attention to the method in which this is being done. In May last, a Circular was issued under the sanction of the Secretary of State for War, signed by the Adjutant General, in which were specified certain articles of equipment as necessary in order to enable the Volunteers to take the field, and then followed this passage:— After a date to be hereafter named, the possession of these articles to be made a condition of efficiency, and their production at inspection will be necessary, in order that the capitation grant may be earned. The capitation allowance made by the Government to Volunteer corps is for efficient men, and efficiency, according to the Volunteer Regulations, means efficiency in shooting with the rifle. Hundreds of thousands of Volunteers who have passed through the ranks have rendered themselves efficient and enabled their corps to gain the allowance;. Hundreds of thousands who are now in the ranks have done; the same; and yet, after having spent all this time and labour, they are suddenly told that unless they fulfil a new and totally different requirement, all that time and labour will go for nothing. This intimation might very well startle the Volunteers, and it has startled them. Now the penalty for failing to fulfil this new condition is deprivation of the capitation allowance. This allowance has been always found insufficient, and therefore the great majority of the corps have been forced into debt.
In 1887 a Committee was formed to inquire into the matter, and the following points wore referred to it by the War Office:— First, to inquire what were the necessary requirements of the Volunteer Force to be covered by the capitation grant; secondly, whether the present grant was sufficient; and thirdly, if not, in what form any increase should be given. The Report of the Committee stated that the grant was insufficient; it recommended that an increase should be made to enable the force to meet their liabilities for necessary purposes; and it-specified what those necessary purposes were, and equipment was not among them. There exists, therefore, no justification whatever for calling upon the Volunteers to provide their own equipment, and to deprive them of a grant which, is scrupulously proportioned to their necessities must mean financial ruin. The Circular divides the equipment into two classes—the one, that which is to be found by the Volunteers themselves; the other, that which is to be provided in a different way.
On mobilisation the State proposes to give two guineas for every efficient man with which to provide the articles of the second class. There is no apparent reason to be found in any statement on the subject why the Volunteers should provide one class of equipment, and tin! State the other. Both are equally indispensable. The inference is that the distinction has been made in order to save the State from paying for a part of the equipment, and to throw tin; cost on the Volunteers. The War Office should have calculated the total expense of the equipment, and have at once said that it would provide it. The Circular with its demand has, however, not been without effect. It procured the co-operation of the Lord Mayor of last year, who, no doubt, was well aware that the Government would be very much obliged to anyone who would spare it the pain of asking for money to provide fur the public safety. In July the Lord Mayor issued an invitation to the public to subscribe to what he called the Patriotic Volunteer Fund, and the letter which accompanied the invitation stated that a Government grant for that purpose would, as many Volunteers felt, change the voluntary character of the force, and greatly diminish its charm. Why "the charm," as the Lord Mayor poetically termed it, should be diminished by that kind of Government grant, any more than by the capitation allowance, or by the grant for the other part of their equipment, or by getting up the Patriotic Fund, no one, probably, except that particular occupant of the Civic Chair, could undertake to explain. Now, to show the inconsiderate way in which this business was entered on, I will mention that the Lord Mayor began by asking for £85,000, and though he only got half of that sum, yet it was more than amply sufficient for its purpose. It is, so far, a success, but a very partial one, for it leaves the enormous majority of the Volunteers—namely, the provincial corps—quite un-provided for.

On bringing this matter before the House last Session, the Secretary for War suggested several ways in which this money might be raised. He said the Volunteers might borrow it, the expediency of which counsel may perhaps be open to doubt, or it might be provided by public subscription, as if they were sufferers by flood or fire, or, lastly, they might apply their minds to the problem. We are all of us aware of cases in which persons who cannot get money in ordinary ways apply their minds to the problem, and often display great ingenuity in doing so, but they are not perhaps a class of persons whom it is desirable the Volunteers should imitate. The result is that at present there are some corps who have endeavoured to provide the necessary money, there are others who are still making efforts, while some are tacitly waiting the signal for being declared inefficient. On the 10th of February last a meeting was hold at Newcastle, representing Northumberland, Newcastle, and Berwick, to consider the position of the Volunteers of the country, when a resolution was agreed to that, inasmuch as the members of the force rendered valuable services for which they received no pay, it was unjust and inexpedient that they should be subject to any charge in respect to the equipment necessary to enable the country to secure the benefit of their services.

A Committee was formed to consider the subject. So that nine months after the issue of the Circular, that is all they have as yet arrived at. It is really quite pathetic to watch ether efforts that have been made, such, for instance, as where officers endeavour to give dramatic performances to assist the equipment of their men for the Public Service. This can hardly be called a success, but, how ever successful, I should still have objected to it on account of its unfairness, because it throws on part of the public the task of finding money for national purposes which ought to be borne by the whole of the community which does not render personal service. Now, the problem, we have to face is this: the provincial corps having no ambitious Lord Mayor to appeal for them, and no rich community to respond, remain in great measure unequipped. Will the Circular be thereupon enforced against them; will they be deprived of the grant? If so, they must to that extent cease to exist; and how does the Government propose to replace them? It must be remembered that Volunteers need only give very short notice in order to pass back into the general mass of the population.
At the very time we are running this risk the Volunteers are being made every year more and more an indispensable element of national defence. They form by far the greatest force numerically of our defensive Army, and all the schemes of national defence take them into account and assign them to their various posts, and, it may be said, those schemes would fall to pieces without them. I submit, then, that this present step is ill-advised and dangerous. It is another example of the unwise spirit in which, we are dealing with this invaluable force. Instead of finding new, unforeseen, and impossible conditions imposed on them, they should meet with all reasonable encouragement, and every step should be taken consistent with strict discipline to render the Service attractive. What escape is there from the dilemma which the Circular has got us into? I would respectfully venture to suggest for the consideration of the right hon.

Gentleman, according to the terms of the Resolution, that after a fixed date all deficiencies of the equipments of Volunteers which are necessary to efficiency, and all debts of corps properly incurred on account of the same, should be made good from the public revenues. I would also suggest that the throat contained in the Circular of deprivation of the Grant should be at once rescinded. I have endeavoured to place this statement before the House in the most simple and unvarnished terms. I think it is very unlikely that many persons, unless they are Volunteers, have made themselves acquainted with the facts which I have stated. It is, however, exceedingly desirable that hon. Members and the public should become acquainted with
 PART TWO TO FOLLOW 

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Re: Snippets of the Manchester Regiment (1-100)
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2017, 05:06:57 PM »
PART TWO


VOLUNTEER EQUIPMENTS.

HC Deb 13 March 1890 vol 342 cc727-64 727

these facts in their own interest and the interest of our Citizen Army; and this is my reason for bringing the matter before the House.

 Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the question, in order to add the words 'it is expedient that, after a certain fixed date, all deficiencies of the equipments of Volunteers which are necessary to efficiency, and all debts of corps properly incurred on account of the same, be made good from the public revenues,'"—(Sir Edward Hamley,) —instead thereof

 Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

 MR. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central)

I gladly rise to second the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend, and I take the opportunity of thanking him on behalf of the Volunteer Force for bringing this matter forward. If the Volunteers are worth anything at all I submit they ought to be equipped properly and maintained at the expense of the State. The House will, I feel sure, admit that the services rendered by the Volunteer Force to the country are incalculable not only in a defensive sense, but in a physical sense, a moral sense, and a patriotic sense. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War has in many ways since he has held office evinced sympathy for the Volunteers, and I am sure the Force will acknowledge the assistance which the right hon. Gentleman has rendered it on many occasions. But I fear that the right hon. Gentleman is not always supported by some of his subordinates as well-wishers of the Volunteer Force would desire and hope. It looks often as if a strict watch was being kept at head quarters upon every Regulation and every allowance that might be beneficial for the development or the training of the Force, and early opportunity taken by some means to check or limit any such order when issued. I am sure that Volunteers as a whole, and especially commanding officers, were very glad indeed of the efforts made to improve the rifle shooting of the force, but no sooner were Regulations issued on that head than we were deprived of 15 rounds of the ammunition we had had for many years. When this was brought to the notice of my right hon. Friend he was good enough to say ho would take this matter into re-consideration, and he says he will allow these 15 rounds again in cases where it can be shown they are absolutely essential. But, I submit, that to have these proposals, these changes and alterations, adopted, often without consideration of the needs of the force, is not only very harassing, but gives rise to a great deal of unnecessary feeling. The Adjutant General of the Forces, in a speech the other day, referred to musketry shooting', and said there was not a battalion of Volunteers who could shoot against any regiment in the Army. Well, that is true, naturally, but I am quite sure that Lord Wolseley, to whom the Volunteer Force is indebted in many ways, had no intention of speaking in a disparaging tone of the fore, but it is certain that comparisons of the kind are not just, and are calculated to give rise to a great deal of needless irritation. In the matter I have mentioned, musketry shooting against the Regular Army, I will only say that the corps I have the honour to command will be ready to shoot against any regiment at any time and under any conditions. My hon. and gallant Friend has referred to the efforts made by Mayors and Civic Authorities to follow the example of the Lord Mayor of London, and raise a fund for the equipment of the Volunteer Force, and I quite agree with what he has said, that it is not fair to the force or to the public. It is absolutely necessary, at any rate, that rifle ranges, drill sheds, parade grounds, and places for exercise should be provided by the State, if the force is worth maintaining at all. I am certain that no Member of this House will contend that the Volunteer Force is not of the greatest national advantage, and thoroughly worth the money to make it in every way efficient. The difficulties of commanding officers on this head are little understood by the public, and are little appreciated by the Authorities. When the Volunteers go out in largo numbers, as they do at Easter, there is the greatest difficulty in finding places where they can be exercised or barrack rooms where they can be located. I do not wish to press this matter at any length on the House, but I do most cordially second the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend, which I trust will find a favourable reception and consideration by the House and the Government.

 MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN (Birmingham, W.)

Before the hon. Gentleman replies I should like, if you will allow me, to say a word or two from this side. Perhaps I owe an apology to the House, because I am not a military man, and am not even a Volunteer, and this is the first occasion on which I have taken part in what is usually considered a military debate. But I have a personal interest in the matter, and I am especially interested, because we in Birmingham are in the position which has been indicated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (General Hamlyn). We have there a very efficient Volunteer Corps, though it is not so large as I should like to see it, and when this Circular was issued, it became a serious matter for us to consider how we should continue that force at all and provide for its necessary equipment. We have no Lord Mayor at Birmingham. It so happens that the last two gentlemen who filled the office of Mayor were worthy and admirable members of the Society of Friends, and, under such circumstances, they naturally declined to take any part in promoting the equipment of the force, and it fell to my lot to do what otherwise would have been done by the Mayor. I believe a meeting is to be arranged shortly after Easter, and large subscriptions, I believe, have been already announced, so that probably we shall find the equipments by voluntary assistance. Our only difficulty in securing this voluntary assistance is the feeling on the part of our liberal citizens that they ought not to be called upon alone to find these funds.
 They are willing to meet their fair share of the cost, but they do not see why the expense should not fall upon the whole of the community, for it is for the advantage of the whole community that the Volunteer Force is established. They say, and with reason, that the time is come when military authorities should tell us what value they set on the Volunteer Force, and tell us if it is really an essential part of the defensive force of the country, or if it is net. If it is not, and if it is merely an amusement  which certain of our citizens are induced to engage in, making some sacrifices for the purpose, then I think it is well that we should have this knowledge at once. If, on the contrary, it is an essential part of our defensive force, then I do maintain that the whole of its necessary equipment ought to be provided from the funds of the country. And even when that is done, let it be clearly understood that those who join this Volunteer Organisation, will have to make considerable sacrifices, not only in time, but in money. There are a number of things that naturally the State cannot be asked to do—prizes, for instance, at shooting competitions. In this and in other ways officers are

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PART THREE

VOLUNTEER EQUIPMENTS.

HC Deb 13 March 1890 vol 342 cc727-64 727

already making large contributions. The point I desire to urge on the Government, and which I should like to press in the terms of the Motion, is that the Department should withdraw that part of the circular which involves a withdrawal of the efficiency grant if certain equipments are not provided. That is really a proposal that cannot be justified. It amounts to a breach of faith with the existing Volunteer Organisation. Unless this is done the position will be this—that in a few places, such as the Metropolis and in our large and populous centres, the liberality of citizens will provide what is necessary; but in other parts of the country there will be corps left in a position in which they are unfit to take the field, and cannot be considered part of our defensive force, and in the event of war breaking out you will have deprived yourself of the advantage of these forces by your own parsimony, a most undesirable state of things.

 THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,) Surrey, Guildford

I do not think we can complain of the tone of the speeches made, but it is necessary that the House should follow the advice of my hon. and gallant Friend, and investigate the facts before proceeding to give a strong vote upon the Resolution brought before us. Nothing is further from the intention of the Government, or would be at so much variance with actual facts and our action since we have been in office, than any idea either of parsimony in dealing with the Volunteers or want of appreciation of the services they have rendered to the country. But if a balance is to be struck between what the public has done and what the Government has done, I think we may fairly take this opportunity of putting forward what has been done towards rendering the force efficient. Special attention has been called to the Volunteer Force in consequence of their being included in the general scheme of mobilisation. Its existence has been a great moral benefit to the country, no doubt, since its establishment. Up to 1886 the Volunteer Force might have been said to be something like a haphazard collection of units, but there has, however, been a change in position, and the military advisers of my right hon. Friend have advised him as to the exact position Volunteers may be expected to take. Immediately the question arose of mobilising the Volunteers, there also arose the question of expense. Reference has been made to the Report of a Committee which assembled under the presidency of Lord Harris. My hon. and gallant Friend has rather skimmed over the pages of that Report, and has not looked thoroughly into the conclusions at which the Committee arrived and the methods by which they reached those conclusions. If he had done so, he would have found that the greater part of his Motion falls to the ground.

The Committee, which had upon it not merely members of the War Office, but two very distinguished Volunteer officers, went seriatim into the amount which the capitation grant would be expected to provide, and considering it, item by item, they proposed an increase of that grant and of other allowances. What was that proposed increase intended to cover? My hon. and gallant Friend said that clothing and equipment was not one of the items. Surely lie has not read page 9 of the Report, in which the words "clothing at so much per head" are specially included. If lie had looked into the Report a little more closely ho would have found that the clothing included the tunic, trousers, shako, gaiters, belt and pouch, and the great coat, to be given by a separate allowance. When we have taken these items, what remain, and what increase has been asked in the circular of the Adjutant General? Every single thing alluded to in that circular is provided tinder the capitation grant according to the estimate of the Committee, with the exception of the havresack, water bottle, and me t s tin, the whole of which cost 3s. 6d., and one pouch now likely to he added in consequence of the new rifle. On the other hand, if hon. Gentlemen will look a little more closely into the Report of the Committee they will see that the estimate is for only about 90 per cent, of the Volunteers to become efficient and earn the 35s. apiece. Bat, in point of fact, it is between 97 and 98 percent., and the difference in the capitation grant in consequence of the extra 7 par cent, is more than equivalent to the cost of the extra equipment demanded by the circular. So far as the Committee represent the facts, they prove satisfactorily and conclusively that nothing is asked for in the circular which cannot be paid for out of the capitation grant if properly administered. I do not wish for a moment to give any opinion as a civilian, but I must be allowed to refer to the fact that we had the advantage on that Committee of the presence of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Colonel pyre), who was able to show, by his own regiment, which he has commanded so many years, not merely that the capitation grant is enough, but that it has been sufficient to provide those equipments which the Committee consider to be necessary. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to explain to other commanding officers how he has got those satisfactory results, and I hope he will also confer privately, with the same object, with the hon. Member for Sheffield, who has spoken in rather a disparaging way of the amount which has been granted to the Volunteers. I would like to say one word as to a remark of the right hon.

Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain), that the Government ought to state what value they attach to the Volunteer Force. The best proof of the value we attach to that force is what we have accomplished since 1886. In the first place, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War thought it necessary for a time to check the increase of the infantry companies in order to encourage the enlistment of artillery and engineer Volunteers. That has had a most satisfactory result. In 1886 we had only five submarine mining engineer companies; now we have 31. The number of efficient engineers had risen to 9,900 in 1886, and has reached 12,500 in the present  year. That is a, substantial advance. Every one of these companies has a definite place in which to servo and in which to carry on mobilisation. There is also an increase in the artillery, and, despite the demand for the qualifying courses of musketry for the efficiency grant in infantry, the reduction in infantry Volunteers from all causes is only 3½ per cent, of efficient Volunteers. During this period the artillery Volunteers have received 284 guns of position' ranging from 16 to 40 pounders. That is an enormous advance, as every artilleryman knows, in providing the infantry with a proper complement of artillery service. Moreover, in consequence of the scheme of mobilisation money is taken in the Estimates, and sites are already bought for the special massing of Volunteers in positions where they will effectively support the field army. The regulation sunder which the Brigadiers conduct their own brigades into camp, have been framed with excellent results, but with considerable additional cost to the country. Something has been said about the equipment of great coats. The 2s. which was offered towards inducing Volunteers to get great coats has certainly resulted most satisfactorily. In 1887 there were only 40,000 great coats among 220,000 men; in 1888 there were 67.000; and last year 94,000, an increase in two years of more than 100 per cent.

It is really necessary that I should state the sums which the Government have asked Parliament to vote for the use of the Volunteers during the last four-years. When the Government came into office the Volunteer Estimates, including Volunteer Services and other Votes, amounted to.£807.000. In 1887 they rose to £841,000; in 1888 to £930,000; in 1889 to £961.000; and in the present year to £967,000. We have, therefore, had an advance of £ 1 60,000 in four years, which is equivalent to 15s. for every Volunteer: and that advance has been given although there has been no increase in the number of efficient Volunteers. It is an increase from £3 10s. to £4 5s., without any increase in the number of Volunteers, but solely in order to get them to attain to greater efficiency. I must say that, under the circumstances, it is a little hard that a Member of this House in the position of the hon. and gallant Gentleman for Birkenhead,  should talk of the unwise way in which the Government has dealt with the force. He apparently imputed to us that we I have been backward in recognising our responsibility in this matter; whereas, we submit that no Government has ever seriously organised the Volunteer Force before, or coped with the demands upon it. I will put before the Committee one or two considerations as to the Motion, which I think ought to be taken into account before it is too hastily resolved, that the Government ought to pay the whole expenses of equipping the Volunteers where they have not been able to equip themselves. Up to 1862 no capitation grant was given at all, but all expenses were met by private subscription. Although the Government then assumed certain responsibilities, it should be clearly understood that at that time, and at each successive advance, only sufficient money has been given to meet actual out-of-pocket expenses. I do not wish to say a word that might be deemed offensive to any commanding officer of the Volunteer Force, but it stands to reason that the administration of some Volunteer corps has not been so economical as that of others. In some cases it has even been exceedingly extravagant.

The hon. Member for Sheffield said that the Government should pay for ranges and drill halls, but the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that there are corps who have spent as much as £10,000 on buildings, to which are attached baths, reading rooms, tennis courts, and almost every kind of luxury. Are the Government to undertake those debts, and are they to do nothing for those corps which have exercised due economy and prudence? We must consider whether it would be dealing fairly with those corps that have been economical to pay the whole of the demands of those corps which have not been economical, and whether, by doing so, we will not create profound discontent among those corps which, in consequence of their providence and foresight, are not obliged to make any claim upon the Government at all. It has been laid down broadly that it is the duty of the Government to place upon the whole community the cost of maintaining a force which is of advantage to the entire country. But there is another way of looking at that. We are asking 225,000 men to give their  services for nothing, while 20 times that number of their fellow-countrymen are equally able to give their services, but do not do so. Why should not these men contribute, and why should we by general taxation make both the men who serve and those who do not contribute equally? It is only fair that they who cannot or do not give their personal services should contribute something towards the cost of the force. Commanding officers already complain that since the rise of the capitation grant subscriptions for prizes have fallen off. I can conceive nothing which is more certain to check the flow of private subscriptions than a Resolution calling upon the Government to pay for all the necessities of the Volunteers when it is certain that the State cannot possibly assume all the liabilities at present met from private subscription. The hon. and gallant Member has, I think, meted out somewhat harsh treatment to the Lord Mayor, and has complained that my hon. Friend threw on the Lord Mayor the task of providing for

PART FOUR TO FOLLOW

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Timberman

It goes on for ever but well worth the read.