Transfers of Manchester Regiment Officers to RFC/RAF

[charlie]

Does your theory include Germany, the Rhineland and something like why did we bother 20 years ago?

[PhilipG]

Charlie,

Exactly. PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

Charlie,

   Percy Ainsworth

An annotation on the MIC indicated that the issue of this officer's BWM & VM was undertaken by the Air Ministry.  I have assumed that they were also returned to the Authorities.   As a callow youth at the time of the incident, I recall the disquiet in the family, not least by my my uncle, late of the RND -Gallipoli, Beaumont Hamel, Gavrelle & Welsh Ridge, in respect of the situation.  Regards, PhilipG.                                                                                                                                                                   

[PhilipG]

         15212 Sergeant Herbert Crux Minty  :  52nd.Bn. Manchester Regt. & RFC

This NCO was stationed at No. 1 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping which was located at Stonehenge, Wiltshire, an area which fortunately avoided military hands post-war to become, today, a World Heritage Site.

On the 21st June 1918, together with 2nd Lt. L.S.Morck as his pilot, they were airborne in a DH9 aircraft No. C6082 over Salisbury Plain.  The reports indicate that they were both "killed whilst flying", but it would seem that when the aircraft crashed to the ground, whilst Sgt. Minty was killed, Lt Morck was alive, although badly injured.  However, Lt.Morck later died on the 26th June and he was buried in a cemetery in Sunderland.

Sergeant Minty is buried in Manchester Southern Cemetery.

It was interesting to read Sergeant Minty's military records, brief though they are.   For instance, I traced him from the 52nd Manchesters to a Medical Board Report dated 26th November 1917 which found him unfit for pilot duties, although fit for employment as an Observer.  Later, in 1918 he attended a short course at the School of Air Gunnery at Hythe in Kent.   PhilipG.

[charlie]

Sgt Minty

Philip
The aircraft developed engine trouble, 2/Lt Morck tried to turn back but the aircraft stalled during the turn, spun in and caught fire on the ground.

Charlie

[PhilipG]

Charlie,

Sgt.Minty.

Thank you for that accident report.   A memory from my teenage years :- "Never turn back to the airfield. Stick fully forward and go straight ahead".  Thanks again. PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

  Re Sgt Minty and his unit.

The accident rate at No. 1 School of Navigation & Bomb Dropping must surely have been discouraging to potential flyers and ground staff arriving for training, duty etc., for I see that deaths on this unit numbered 31.   The usual humorous military welcome to arriving trainees of "You won't like it here, Jack" has, in this case, a modicum of truth about it.

The list of those who died at the base includes Air Mechanics, Flight Cadets and, interestingly, No. 156436 Boy Arthur Harry Andrews who was killed on the 23rd October 1918 age 17.  His mother lived in Radford, Nottingham, his name being engraved on the Screen Wall of Nottingham General Cemetery.

Another Boy, No. 156478 Albert Edward Robert Reynolds was killed whilst serving with the unit on the 15th April 1918 and is buried in Colchester Cemetery. PhilipG.

[PhilipG]

  401713 Air Mechanic 1st Class Albert Edward Loughhead :Manchester Regt. & RAF

This airman DOW on the 15th September 1918.  He is recorded as being based at "X" Engine Repair Depot at the time of his death which, in view of the fact that he is buried in the Cairo War Memorial Cemetery suggests that the unit was based somewhere nearby.

I failed to discover the circumstances of his death and would be glad of any further info. upon this air mechanic, whose family lived in the Gorton district of Manchester.  PhilipG.

[charlie]

Phillip

X ERD was based at Abbassia.

Charlie

[PhilipG]

Charlie,

Thank you for that information. I'm intrigued with the DOW, which suggests combat. PhilipG.

[charlie]

A bit more on Albert Loughhead. Soldiers effects records his death at 27 General Hospital Abassia.

The RAF roll of honour has him as being killed accidentaly

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/loughhead-a.e.-albert-edward

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/loughhead-a.e


Charlie

[PhilipG]

Charlie,

Re A. Loughhead

Thank you once again.  "Accidentally killed" seems more likely than that recorded in my RAF Roll of Honour which has him down as DOW, a description of his death which made me think he had, perhaps, been in airborne conflict.  PhilipG.

[mancpal]

Philip,

Whilst marginally off topic (he wasn't a Mcrs officer) I have discovered that my great uncle began military life in 6th Manchester's in April 1908 and finished as a pilot in the RFC/RAF.
He was Private William Lewis Thomas, No341. He was attached to 1/1st E.Lancs RE signal section and served in Gallipoli before being admitted to 11th CCS with dysentery ending up in the 2nd Western General Hospital (central high school on Whitworth St where my father was a pupil ).
At some point afterwards (as 2nd Lt) he became a pilot of Bristol F2's with 48 squadron. His plane (A7227) was shot up by Jasta 11 on March 11th 1918 though he and Cpl J. Bowles escaped injury. This occurred near to St Quentin and although Lothar Von Richthofen claimed a "Bristol" at approximately the same time I've no way of proving it was he who was responsible. On April 23rd whilst flying another Bristol he was again involved in action this time sustaining a gunshot wound to the thigh described as "severe". I've no knowledge if his companion survived unscathed. The above information arrived with me via the GWF and in particular Trevor Henshaw who wrote about him in his book " The sky their battlefield". I have not seriously attempted to research Bill Thomas simply because I've no idea where to start with RFC/RAF. I have some basics such as copies of territorial enlistment papers, MIC (star returned for some reason) and a couple of other snippets. If you or any other members could advise me where to start looking and what to look for I'd be very grateful. I don't wish anyone to go out of their way, I simply require pointers in an unfamiliar sphere.

Finally, am I right in thinking that you are Philip G of Salisbury? If so I still have a couple of letters you wrote to me in 1993 when I stumbled on a photo of my grandfather at the Mcrs museum in Ashton and had little knowledge of how to begin researching him. Your encouragement then , along with that of Michael Stedman and latterly Paul Kendal have enthused me to carry on searching. From that single photo I now have amassed quite an amount of information on both my grandfather's military lives ( Cpl J Lamb 22nds and Pte H A Thomas 21sts). I've also added 5 other family members who served in the army/RFC though not yet in that much detail. I've also made several visits to the battlefields over a number of years and am currently trying to wheedle my way on to my sons school trip next year though I feel I may have to stowaway as it seems to be a popular trip among parents!

Best regards

Simon Lamb

[PhilipG]

Simon,

          2nd Lieutenant William Lewis Thomas  : 6th Manchesters & RAF

Thank you for your interesting and valuable contribution to the thread.

I can add little to the info. you gave in your post, but nevertheless, I had a look at what I have to hand.

My info. states that he was on an Offensive Patrol (with Cpl. Bowles as gunner) on the 11th March 1918, flying a Bristol F2b aircraft, when at noon in the St. Quentin region they were in combat with enemy aircraft.  I note that von Richthofen claimed victory in this encounter, which he said took place near Fresnoy-le-Petit at 1.10.p.m., presumably German time.

I traced the lieutenant to an operation on the 24th April 1918 (you state the date was 23rd April), whilst on a solo flight in a Bristol F2b.   During this flight he was hit by rifle fire and classified as WIA.   The report on air activities on 24th April 1918 indicates that flying conditions were such that airmen were driven low and casualties from ground fire were high.   Your report of a thigh wound could be attributed to such fire?

As regards gathering further info., I can offer little advice, although there is a colleague and excellent contributor to this thread, who frequently is able to add details to my research and, no doubt, when reading this piece will see if he can help.

In the matter of the 1993 letters, I hope that you were able to read my handwriting!   My visits to Ashton must have been the start of my "following in the footsteps of the 2nd battalion", which to some extent I am still doing.   Regards, PhilipG.

[charlie]

Hello Simon,
Regarding the time of Lothar von Richthofen's victory claim, British and German time were as far as I can gather (and I am happy to be corrected) the same as of 10th March 1918.

You may already be aware of these sites which contain very useful information:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/
http://www.airhistory.org.uk
http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/page/26565-home
http://www.rafcommands.com
http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk

If I was starting to research RAF/RFC personnel apart from the obvious service record etc, the air history people lists would be a good place to start and if a casualty the RoH at the RAF museum site.


Charlie